Recoil management.

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  • Recoil management info.


    • Total voters
      18
    • Poll closed .

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    Recoil is your friend... not really.

    BLUF: Bottom Line Up Front, everything you can do to reduce, minimize, eliminate recoil, do it.

    When a gun fires, it causes an inverse reaction to the shooter; this is basic physics. To be specific, it's Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    The lower recoil, or ability of the shooter to manage recoil is one of the major advantages of the 9mm over it's competitors: .40, .45, .357Sig. The only other firearm caliber that is widely respected as an 'equal' to those calibers is the FN 5.7. The infamous Kel-Tec PMR in .22WMR (.22 Magnum) is relatively the same recoil as the 5.7.

    Yes, I'm primarily talking about pistols, but rifle recoil can be a big deal, here is a significant injury caused by recoil by improper technique (holding against bicep, vice the pocket of the shoulder (proper)):

    RECOIL%20BRUISING.jpg


    With proper technique and padding, recoil can be greatly minimized.

    The most important issue regarding recoil is the time it takes for a shooter to get back on target. Recoil disrupts the shooters sight picture, moving their sight alignment to a different degree depending on the level of recoil. The time it takes for the shooter to reacquire a proper sight alignment is the major detriment to recoil. This is why generally 9mm is better than most other calibers, is because the recoil is less, and the shooter can more execute follow up shots.

    Generally the lower the bore axis, the lighter the recoil. Likewise a heavier gun will generally have less recoil because the weight of the gun itself affects Newton's third law. Also, the tighter, stronger, and higher the shooter grips on the gun, the quicker the recovery from recoil.

    Here is a gif of a fairly light weight shooter, firing a relatively heavy caliber rifle; you can easily see the recoil response in the shooter. Now imagine if that shooter were firing a .22LR or other light caliber rifle, the recoil response would be much lower, and she would be able to fire repeated shots much more quickly and accurately.

    giphy.gif


    Here is an excellent discussion about recoil: http://recoilisnotyourenemy.blogspot.com

    As is this guest contributor to Chuck Hawk's excellent blog: http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_management.htm

    This is a pretty good video about recoil:


    Just break it up, let me ask, what the heck is she shooting, .50 cal?

    1T2PCYb.gif


    Rifle recoil, shotgun too, they are both much more different than with pistol shooting. Most semi auto pistols will have a malfunction if you 'limp wrist', or hold the gun too much like a wimp (wimpily?). Recoil in a handgun is much more significant than with a rifle. Most shooters have enough body mass that shooting a rifle doesn't matter quite as much as with a handgun. Said better, rifles are much more forgiving with regard to recoil management.


    This is probably the best description and demonstration of recoil management video I was able to find in my quick search:


    Bottom line is that proper technique and strength, are more important than caliber or bore axis.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    This vid is good too:

    I teach much of what the instructors demonstrate in these videos.

    Attending a class is much better than just watching a video, especially when it comes to actual shooting and analysis of the shooter and their response. There is also a major confidence level with taking live training and getting that immediate feedback and reinforcement.
     

    Boom Boom

    Hold my beer. Watch this.
    Jul 16, 2010
    16,834
    Carroll
    The first photo is why it's critical for a high-powered rifle or shotgun to be fitted to the shooter. Years ago, I shot 50 rounds of clays with an ill-fitting 12ga shotgun and my chest looked like his bicep the next day.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I have used the drunk driver system to shooting high power rifles for years. I hold the rifle firmly, but then I relax my shoulder and back muscles. I know the recoil is going to be there, but by shooting this way, I'm like a drunk in a car accident. I don't bruise and I don't tire from shooting. Garands are usually the worse for people to shoot and not bruise, but I can shoot 100 rounds with nothing.

    It's something I stumbled onto years ago and I shoot well and don't bruise up.

    It's difficult to explain exactly what I do, but it works for me.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,999
    A lot of people learn to shoot from movies and TV shows. That's the first problem. I witness so many people, when shooting long guns, bringing their eyes DOWN to the sight. Meaning, they are already out of shape, holding the rifle too low, tucked into the crook of the shoulder/arm. I have the hardest time convincing them to keep their heads more upright and bring the sight/scope UP to their line of sight.

    EDIT: I liked the part with the jiggly butts.:thumbsup:
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,464
    White Marsh
    Huge fan of this thread. For those among us who needed the lesson, one was provided in a clear, concise manner. Even managed throw in some eye candy.

    I'll never pretend I know everything about a subject, and I'll never complain about eye candy.

    Someone get that man a beer. :thumbsup: :beer:
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,120
    Northern Virginia
    How you view recoil depends on what and how you are shooting. Some of us depend on recoil and muzzle flip to aid in running our particular handgun.

    Picture #1 happened to me on my first cowboy action match. I brought my SxS up too quick and it ended up on my right bicep, producing that same bruise.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,576
    Glen Burnie
    How you view recoil depends on what and how you are shooting. Some of us depend on recoil and muzzle flip to aid in running our particular handgun.

    Thanks Jim. Great point that I will try to expound on.

    So, there is stopping/eliminating recoil and there is controlling/"working with" recoil.

    All the tacticool video guys love "running" their guns on a paper target with, I wouldn't even call them rhythm drills. They are just unloading on a target trying to stop recoil all together and keeping a tight group. This looks cool and they make it work by having a tight grip and having their hand high up on the axis. That's cool. Appears to work, and is fun. But how needed is it in a real situation?
    I like shooting this way just because it is something different to throw in the ol bag of tricks.
    One can make fast self defense shots at close range with not such a discipline grip. Which someone probably won't have drawing and moving from/on a threat.

    For most of us and the type of shooting we do, we need to work with the recoil and know how to make it part of our shooting. We are mostly not shooting rapid fire like this usually, but just for fun (sometimes).

    For slower aimed fire, we use and tame the recoil when we reset our sight picture. There are probably a zillion videos on this so I don't feel like searching for the perfect one to post, just youtube "reset sight picture" and I am sure something will come up.
    So our first aimed shot is just that, aimed in with our nice sight picture. We take the shot and recoil makes the muzzle flip up. Well, we "work with" that rise, control it to a point and bring it back down to reset and capture our next sight picture. Then take our next shot.

    Learning to take shots this way let's all of our good shooting basics play in the pool together i.e... breathing, sight alignment, trigger press, RECOIL, trigger reset and sight reset. Repeat. Sort of like the principles of judo, you redirect and use the momentum of the enemy, in this case recoil, to your advantage.

    All good info in the videos for sure, but to be fair, this type of shooting is not the majority of how we shoot. But good info none the less.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,120
    Northern Virginia
    So our first aimed shot is just that, aimed in with our nice sight picture. We take the shot and recoil makes the muzzle flip up. Well, we "work with" that rise, control it to a point and bring it back down to reset and capture our next sight picture. Then take our next shot.

    Learning to take shots this way let's all of our good shooting basics play in the pool together i.e... breathing, sight alignment, trigger press, RECOIL, trigger reset and sight reset. Repeat. Sort of like the principles of judo, you redirect and use the momentum of the enemy, in this case recoil, to your advantage.

    All good info in the videos for sure, but to be fair, this type of shooting is not the majority of how we shoot. But good info none the less.

    You're assuming I'm talking about a semi-auto pistol ;) . When I'm shooting a pair of single-action revolvers, I use the return from recoil to cock the hammer on the way down. Since the recoil torques the revolver in my hand, it brings the hammer closer to my thumb. Riding the hammer down to the next sight saves some time so the revolver is ready to fire when aiming at the next target. It works even better when running two SAAs shooting Gunfighter. I'd link a video but I'm at work and YouTube is blocked.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,576
    Glen Burnie
    You're assuming I'm talking about a semi-auto pistol ;) . When I'm shooting a pair of single-action revolvers, I use the return from recoil to cock the hammer on the way down. Since the recoil torques the revolver in my hand, it brings the hammer closer to my thumb. Riding the hammer down to the next sight saves some time so the revolver is ready to fire when aiming at the next target. It works even better when running two SAAs shooting Gunfighter. I'd link a video but I'm at work and YouTube is blocked.

    Well, that's what I know, semi - autos. But the point was really to learn to use the recoil for things just what you are saying. A shooter's feng shui :)
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,509
    For most of us and the type of shooting we do, we need to work with the recoil and know how to make it part of our shooting. We are mostly not shooting rapid fire like this usually, but just for fun (sometimes).

    For slower aimed fire, we use and tame the recoil when we reset our sight picture. There are probably a zillion videos on this so I don't feel like searching for the perfect one to post, just youtube "reset sight picture" and I am sure something will come up.
    So our first aimed shot is just that, aimed in with our nice sight picture. We take the shot and recoil makes the muzzle flip up. Well, we "work with" that rise, control it to a point and bring it back down to reset and capture our next sight picture. Then take our next shot.

    Learning to take shots this way let's all of our good shooting basics play in the pool together i.e... breathing, sight alignment, trigger press, RECOIL, trigger reset and sight reset. Repeat. Sort of like the principles of judo, you redirect and use the momentum of the enemy, in this case recoil, to your advantage.

    All good info in the videos for sure, but to be fair, this type of shooting is not the majority of how we shoot. But good info none the less.
    Yup. Here's me having some fun with the m&p45. Theoretically, I could speed up my shooting a lot if I time myself better to break the next shot when the sight falls back down the first time and resets before those extra two small bounces. I'm not there yet, and my hands were blocks of ice that day so trigger control wasn't that good. Sooo, I was waiting until I got a sight picture on target before pressing off the next shot.

    It is cool to film yourself shooting in slow-mo to break down all the little things you do but don't really notice in full speed. You can see if you've got your weight positioned correctly in your base to adsorb recoil and go back forward efficiently, if you need more tension somewhere in your grip, what's going on with the trigger, and how your arms are soaking up the impulse. Most all phones or digital cameras have some kind of slo-mo video setting now, I'd encourage folks to go out and give it a shot.


    here's one shot-gunnin. Here, not only can you see recoil management well, but also a complete failboat of leading and swinging through. I can't shake the habit of jumping out in front and ambushing the clay rather than track along with it.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    You're assuming I'm talking about a semi-auto pistol ;) . When I'm shooting a pair of single-action revolvers, I use the return from recoil to cock the hammer on the way down. Since the recoil torques the revolver in my hand, it brings the hammer closer to my thumb. Riding the hammer down to the next sight saves some time so the revolver is ready to fire when aiming at the next target. It works even better when running two SAAs shooting Gunfighter. I'd link a video but I'm at work and YouTube is blocked.

    I never thought of that, and after watching a few cowboy action pistol shooters, I see exactly what you mean; that's cool!

    Here's one:
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    yucky. :D My LCR .38 hurts my sensitive hands.

    I'm reconsidering my desire for a 9mm LCR or LCRx. Although they don't yet make an LCRx, I'd still like to shoot one and see for myself. It just seems like the ultimate 'super reliable' backup to a 9mm carry pistol.

    I shot a buddies LCR in .357 a few weeks ago, it's ok in .38 (still a stinger), but in .357 it's really not bearable more than one cylinder. I guess as long as you could manage the recoil enough to get it back on target in a hurry, it would be a powerful, albeit brutal self defense handgun in a very small package. I'll pass.

    .357sig in a normal sized (229/226) pistol is about the max I think most of us will ever need. And you can shoot it all day without making your hand go numb.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,120
    Northern Virginia
    .357sig in a normal sized (229/226) pistol is about the max I think most of us will ever need. And you can shoot it all day without making your hand go numb.

    I used to carry a 1911 in 10mm. Same speed with heavier bullets :D I sure do miss that gun, need to get another one some time soon.
     

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