Rail Question, gas block/front sight combo?

Please Read Before Voting!!!

I'm between 3 rail systems for my .300 Fireball/.300-221 AR-15 build. My only requirements are that they are free floated, are 9" long (mid-length gas tube), and the top rail must mate with the receiver for a continuous appearance. Perceived negatives are in italics! Please feel free to vote/chime in with your experiences.

Midwest Industries T-Series ($195): http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=230
- 11.7 OZ.
- One piece construction, most solid (I think?)
- Seems pretty KISS
- Only real downside is it's a semi-permanent installation and requires purchasing a special tool for the nut. Do the universal armorers wrenches work for the nut?

Daniel Defense Omega ($270): http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=52070/pid=24634/sku/Omega_Rail_9_0__Black
- 9.7 OZ.
- Two-piece construction (still free-floated, allows M203/masterkey )
- Oval profile
- Easy install/removal
- Includes rail covers
- QD sling swivels (rotation limited!)
- Apparently includes a special reinforcing barrel nut

Troy Industries ($227): http://www.troyind.com/MRFRails.html
- 7 OZ. (according to Troy's site)
- "Anti-rotation lugs" (are these as solid as the Omega system? If so, they are nice)
- QD sling swivels (360-degree, not ideal IMO)
- Oval profile
- Easy install/removal
- Same rail on M&P15T, I think, which gets great reviews.


I'm also pretty set on the YHM flip-up front sight/gas block. Still not sure I'm going w/ rail or lug version. Anyone heard anything bad about this sight? I have a YHM quad rail on my .223 AR and have been impressed.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21446/Product/AR_15_M16_CLAMP_ON_FRONT_SIGHT_GAS_BLOCK

I'm not an MI fan so I would go with DD first and Troy second.

3rdRcn said:

I'm not an MI fan so I would go with DD first and Troy second.

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Yeah I was leaning DD, just ensuring the extra cost is justified.

The more I think about it, I like the Omega better and better.

Any knowledge on the YHM gas block/flip sight?

smores said:

Yeah I was leaning DD, just ensuring the extra cost is justified.

The more I think about it, I like the Omega better and better.

Any knowledge on the YHM gas block/flip sight?

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That DD System causes excessive torque to be added to the upper receiver, the locking nuts can shoot loose and they are no better than a chinese rail system. I have messed with those rails enough to make we want to hurl. I HATE them.

The MI rails are cheap na doften out of spec.

The Troy or a LaRue is my pick, but the FF YHM is a MUCH more cost effective proposal.

I do this to all carbine and mid length systems:


I then put a 12" FF (Rifle Length Rail) on the the carbine, and it foats over the cut down FSB. The longer rail allows you drive the rifle out better and stabilize the muzzle climb. The longer rail is better whn shooting off of solid objects since it cant touch the barrel (Only 4" of barrel stciks out)

I dont like set screw or clamp on Gas blocks. Nothing beats the reliability ro rugged ness of a cross drilled ad pinned FSB. The pinned and clamp on ones will heat up and likely fail when you need them the most, a slight shift will shut off your gas port and youll be screwed.

Just some imput, from my perspective.

smores said:

Yeah I was leaning DD, just ensuring the extra cost is justified.

The more I think about it, I like the Omega better and better.

Any knowledge on the YHM gas block/flip sight?

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No knowledge of the flip up front sights, but YHM usually makes quality stuff.

smores said:

Any knowledge on the YHM gas block/flip sight?

Click to expand...

Mine's ok - nothing fancy but it does get the job done.

clandestine said:

That DD System causes excessive torque to be added to the upper receiver, the locking nuts can shoot loose and they are no better than a chinese rail system. I have messed with those rails enough to make we want to hurl. I HATE them.

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Wow, good to know. I have yet to come across a bad review on these things. Thanks for the advice.

clandestine said:

The Troy or a LaRue is my pick, but the FF YHM is a MUCH more cost effective proposal.

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Troy seems like they have pretty robust stuff. The video on their site with a guy breaking a window with one of their Medieval flash hiders underlined that. I didn't choose LaRue because their rail did not mate evenly with the receiver.

clandestine said:

I do this to all carbine and mid length systems:

I then put a 12" FF (Rifle Length Rail) on the the carbine, and it foats over the cut down FSB. The longer rail allows you drive the rifle out better and stabilize the muzzle climb. The longer rail is better whn shooting off of solid objects since it cant touch the barrel (Only 4" of barrel stciks out)

I dont like set screw or clamp on Gas blocks. Nothing beats the reliability ro rugged ness of a cross drilled ad pinned FSB. The pinned and clamp on ones will heat up and likely fail when you need them the most, a slight shift will shut off your gas port and youll be screwed.

Click to expand...

I thought about doing that for my build, but I like having the forward sling swivel and bayonet lug. It will also be cheaper in the long run to get a gas block/sight combo than a separate gas block and BUIS (unless I go with the MBUS, which I'd prefer not to use).

Your point about the gas block shifting would be valid if I were doing competition shooting or going to Iraq to cap Ayrabs... but for now I'm a plinker and occasional shooter. I maybe shoot 20 rounds a month, but in the future I want to shoot more.

I was sort of wary about the clamp-on gas block, but I see even reputable makers such as J.P. Enterprises uses clamp-on type sights. I know there's only typically <.001 clearance between the barrel and gas block ideally, but would it be possible to soft-solder the sight in place? Many rifle and shotgun sights are soldered on, so why couldn't it be done in this case? Will CM steel adhere with 416 stainless using soft-solder?

I like the MI ones. And you can get a good deal on them from here on the boards (no its not mine)

http://www.mdshooters.com/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=1927:


I did the same thing as Clandestine by cutting my gas block down. I got mine from Decoy and it worked out great.

smores said:

Wow, good to know. I have yet to come across a bad review on these things. Thanks for the advice.




Troy seems like they have pretty robust stuff. The video on their site with a guy breaking a window with one of their Medieval flash hiders underlined that. I didn't choose LaRue because their rail did not mate evenly with the receiver.



I thought about doing that for my build, but I like having the forward sling swivel and bayonet lug. It will also be cheaper in the long run to get a gas block/sight combo than a separate gas block and BUIS (unless I go with the MBUS, which I'd prefer not to use).

Your point about the gas block shifting would be valid if I were doing competition shooting or going to Iraq to cap Ayrabs... but for now I'm a plinker and occasional shooter. I maybe shoot 20 rounds a month, but in the future I want to shoot more.

I was sort of wary about the clamp-on gas block, but I see even reputable makers such as J.P. Enterprises uses clamp-on type sights. I know there's only typically <.001 clearance between the barrel and gas block ideally, but would it be possible to soft-solder the sight in place? Many rifle and shotgun sights are soldered on, so why couldn't it be done in this case? Will CM steel adhere with 416 stainless using soft-solder?

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Im glad my input helped you narrow your choices.

You are correct about the bayo lug, for sling apps I get these:



Several companires make rail height front sight BUIS, so consider that. MI makes a rail front BUIS for a low price. The Magpul MBUS sights havent failed on the several ones I have beaten yet.

You can silver solder the Gas Block. I havent soldered did-similar metal gas block/barrel combos before, so I cant say if that wuld work or not. In this situation red loctite would work well for sealing th gas system.

Im a big fan of soldered on parts, its VERY durable if you prep the metal properly.

The issues I have observed with non pinned FSB/Gas Blocks isnt with the gas seal its actually due to the positioning and durability under heat, impact, and high usage. Under high heat the clamping screws on the Gas Block/FSB and set screws on the Gas Block/FSB can loosen up, and cause the gas block to shift, or the gas tube can heat up and bend. When this happens the gas key on the bolt carrier will hit the bent gas tube and ram the gas block forward or out of alignment shutting off the gas flow. , ot locking the bolt carrier in the forward position over the bent gas tube.

Its good you are looking for input, you will save yourself alot of regret and headach in the future. I have seen so much money wasted on unreliable accesories by customers that its almost a crime.

I have gotten to a point in my career that I flat out refuse to put together rifles or parts/accessories for customers unless I know they will work reliably. Some guys hate me for refusing certain work. A good smith can have his name trashed real fast by parts/accessories that prematurely fail. Remember everything you build has your reputation attached to it, weter its a customers rig or your own. Nothing negative about your choices, just my reasoning for my input.

Be sure to post some pics when your all done, im sure its gonna be a slick rig.

Cheers my friend.

clandestine said:

You can silver solder the Gas Block. I havent soldered did-similar metal gas block/barrel combos before, so I cant say if that wuld work or not. In this situation red loctite would work well for sealing th gas system.

Im a big fan of soldered on parts, its VERY durable if you prep the metal properly.

The issues I have observed with non pinned FSB/Gas Blocks isnt with the gas seal its actually due to the positioning and durability under heat, impact, and high usage. Under high heat the clamping screws on the Gas Block/FSB and set screws on the Gas Block/FSB can loosen up, and cause the gas block to shift, or the gas tube can heat up and bend. When this happens the gas key on the bolt carrier will hit the bent gas tube and ram the gas block forward or out of alignment shutting off the gas flow. , ot locking the bolt carrier in the forward position over the bent gas tube.

Click to expand...

I've been trained on silver and soft soldering. After posting I searched and discovered AK FSBs are commonly silver soldered. Now that I think about it, inexpensive doubles are silver soldered as well. When testing my silver solder joints (1"x2" strips of cold-rolled steel, overlapped about 1" square for the joint), I clamped the soldered steel plates in a vise and bent them over with a sledgehammer past 90 degrees, all the way down until it bent flush to the vise. As long as they're properly fluxed, I have total confidence in silver-soldered joints. As far as I know, they're ok to use on non-heat treated parts that do not require a certain hardness. Sounds like this is what I'll go for. Will be a nice touch for a custom project I hope to show off to potential employers/customers.

clandestine said:

Its good you are looking for input, you will save yourself alot of regret and headach in the future. I have seen so much money wasted on unreliable accesories by customers that its almost a crime.

I have gotten to a point in my career that I flat out refuse to put together rifles or parts/accessories for customers unless I know they will work reliably. Some guys hate me for refusing certain work. A good smith can have his name trashed real fast by parts/accessories that prematurely fail. Remember everything you build has your reputation attached to it, weter its a customers rig or your own. Nothing negative about your choices, just my reasoning for my input.

Be sure to post some pics when your all done, im sure its gonna be a slick rig.

Cheers my friend.

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I'm young, but I'm a perfectionist and know the value of learning from the experiences of others. I sincerely appreciate any input I can get, there are a lot of guys before me who have spent plenty of coin and time figuring out what works and what doesn't. In some cases, we'll always have to take a leap of faith - but especially with the internet we can limit the risk substantially.

And trust me, I won't be hawking UTG or ATI junk in my shop. If people wanna go to cheaper than dirt and buy cheap crap for DIY projects, that's on them. I agree, and it's pounded into our heads at school that EVERY GUN WE TOUCH (even if just for a cleaning job) is out there for the world to see. The higher standards have, the more trust clients have in us. Pretty simple concept that I'm sure a lot of gunsmiths have ignored at their peril.

I can't wait to get started on this thing. I have my upper/lower together, but no stock or anything so it's not exciting. Once I get more components I'll start a thread!

- 7 OZ. (according to Troy's site)

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FYI, the Troy rail doesn't weigh 7 oz, it is 7 oz MORE than a standard handguard. If you are trying to stay light weight, the troy rail is not the way to go. it is, however, built like a tank.

That DD System causes excessive torque to be added to the upper receiver, the locking nuts can shoot loose and they are no better than a chinese rail system. I have messed with those rails enough to make we want to hurl. I HATE them.

Click to expand...

Does that apply to all the DD rail systems, or just the M4 rail? I've seen problems like you describe with the M4 rail, but the Lite Rail and Omega Rails have drastically different mounting systems.

Archangel said:

FYI, the Troy rail doesn't weigh 7 oz, it is 7 oz MORE than a standard handguard. If you are trying to stay light weight, the troy rail is not the way to go. it is, however, built like a tank.

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I was wary of that, which is why I added the note, lol. I handled a M&P15T the other day with the Troy rail, and liked it. I'd like to get my hands on the Omega before making a decision.

Archangel said:

Does that apply to all the DD rail systems, or just the M4 rail? I've seen problems like you describe with the M4 rail, but the Lite Rail and Omega Rails have drastically different mounting systems.

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Thanks for your input. I'll check this out. I started googling for instances of problems with Omega Rails and really couldn't find anything. And we all know in this industry, if your product sucks - you will find people complaining.

I have a DD rail on my beowulf, and it's great. Easy to install, and rock solid.

clandestine said:

That DD System causes excessive torque to be added to the upper receiver, the locking nuts can shoot loose and they are no better than a chinese rail system. I have messed with those rails enough to make we want to hurl. I HATE them.

Click to expand...

I have the Omega 9.0 on a Beowulf, and haven't found that to be the case. Keep in mind that this is the same gun that has now killed two scopes with recoil, but the rail system is still rock-solid. (It won't be killing another one- I put a U.S. Optics SN-3s on it.)