SBR questions?

yournamehere · Jan 15, 2014

I want to build a SBR but have been holding off to see what happens with post 10/1 form 1's. I am tired of waiting and I want to submit it and see what happens. Would this be a mistake? Should I be more patient and wait and see what happens?

I am looking at an AAC 9" 300 BLK upper. If I found the correct info, this upper along with a standard MOE stock would put my OAL at 27.5". Can anyone confirm this for me?

If my form 1 comes back approved am I good to go or would I be in violation of MD law with an OAL of less than 29" ?

IMBLITZVT · Jan 15, 2014

yournamehere said:
I want to build a SBR but have been holding off to see what happens with post 10/1 form 1's. I am tired of waiting and I want to submit it and see what happens. Would this be a mistake? Should I be more patient and wait and see what happens?

I am looking at an AAC 9" 300 BLK upper. If I found the correct info, this upper along with a standard MOE stock would put my OAL at 27.5". Can anyone confirm this for me?

If my form 1 comes back approved am I good to go or would I be in violation of MD law with an OAL of less than 29" ?

The only thing you forgot to mention was if you were doing a trust or individual?

Well, worst case for an individual, is you spend money on fingerprints and pictures and MSP fee and time involved to get turned down. So if you are willing to risk that, yeah IMHO submit it. They said yes and then no on these SBRs... however the law I think does not support the NO answer. There is some word that they will be coming out with more info soon but we are talking about MSP and a political and legal issue. So if you are sick of waiting, yeah drop it off at MSP!

It is kind of funny that they ask OAL on something not yet built and so impossible to measure. Can they assume we have a blue print of the design?

If the Form 1 comes back from MSP approved, you are good to go. If you do a trust, its a bit more in question but yeah you are probably still good as ATF can't give you permission to build something illegal. However I am sure some very cautious people will disagree. However an approved form from MSP or ATF is good enough for me and I am sure would hold up in any court.

yournamehere · Jan 15, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
The only thing you forgot to mention was if you were doing a trust or individual?

Well, worst case for an individual, is you spend money on fingerprints and pictures and MSP fee and time involved to get turned down. So if you are willing to risk that, yeah IMHO submit it. They said yes and then no on these SBRs... however the law I think does not support the NO answer. There is some word that they will be coming out with more info soon but we are talking about MSP and a political and legal issue. So if you are sick of waiting, yeah drop it off at MSP!

It is kind of funny that they ask OAL on something not yet built and so impossible to measure. Can they assume we have a blue print of the design?

If the Form 1 comes back from MSP approved, you are good to go. If you do a trust, its a bit more in question but yeah you are probably still good as ATF can't give you permission to build something illegal. However I am sure some very cautious people will disagree. However an approved form from MSP or ATF is good enough for me and I am sure would hold up in any court.

It would be submitted under a trust.

bobthefisher · Jan 15, 2014

IMHO get the trust together with an industry partner here and submit the thing via eFile. I'm personally tired of waiting on MSP for an "interpretation" of the law. If you want to play it a little safer make it a 10.5" barrel to kick it up to the 29" OAL copycat minimum.

Joseph · Jan 15, 2014

So how is the OAL measured? from where to where?
If you have a collapsible stock do you measure the longest or shortest length?

andrewb · Jan 15, 2014

Joseph said:
So how is the OAL measured? from where to where?
If you have a collapsible stock do you measure the longest or shortest length?

Longest length from end to end. Playing with numbers, I think a 9" barrel w/ a T51 muzzle device should be ~29.1" long. However, I don't have 9" barrel to verify that with.

bobthefisher · Jan 15, 2014

andrewb said:
Longest length from end to end. Playing with numbers, I think a 9" barrel w/ a T51 muzzle device should be ~29.1" long. However, I don't have 9" barrel to verify that with.

Muzzle attachments are only counted if they're soldered (1100 F silver) or pinned (i.e. permanent). If the muzzle device is not permanent then it must be removed and buttsock fully extended for a proper measurement of OAL.

erwos · Jan 15, 2014

That's how the Feds do it, anyways. MD law doesn't specify.

Pinecone · Feb 9, 2014

BATF documents do not state pinned or silver soldered for OAL. Only for barrel length.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

erwos · Feb 9, 2014

Pinecone said:
BATF documents do not state pinned or silver soldered for OAL. Only for barrel length.

I love how people think I'm always making this shit up. Please read this letter from 2011:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=...3NDc2NmItOWVlZi00NjEzLTlhMzYtZTgxM2FiNzBkMGU3

Removable muzzle devices (flash Suppressors, muzzle brakes, barrel extensions, ete), do not count towards overall length or barrel length measurements. However, permanently affixed attachments are considered part of the barrel.

Pinecone · Feb 10, 2014

Interesting, as that letter does not agree with other publications.

SCARCQB · Feb 10, 2014

erwos said:
I love how people think I'm always making this shit up. Please read this letter from 2011:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=...3NDc2NmItOWVlZi00NjEzLTlhMzYtZTgxM2FiNzBkMGU3

LOL.... I feel your pain

IMBLITZVT · Feb 10, 2014

Pinecone said:
Interesting, as that letter does not agree with other publications.

Can you please provide a link to them? It would not surprise me one bit. However what he posted was ATF standard. I have never heard of anyone doing different without it expressly written into the law. Everything always reverts back to ATF standards if not addressed by the state. Maybe not 100% for sure legally but 99.9% of the time.

After all how do you measure what is the barrel? Does the chamber count? A crown on the barrel? How about barrel extensions? What if you can't even see the tip of the barrel with the muzzle devices pinned on? ATF standard actually makes the most sense of any of these stupid ass ways of doing it. The real answer is stop worrying about barrel length and OAL. All criminals can get saws!

swinokur · Feb 10, 2014

They put a wooden dowl down the barrel until it hits the bolt, then mark the dowel, remove it and measure the length IIRC.

dblas · Feb 10, 2014

erwos said:
That's how the Feds do it, anyways. MD law doesn't specify.

Del. Smigiel received a reply to this question, I posted it over in the "No more SBRs" thread.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2960803&postcount=1107

They do it the same as the Feds.

erwos · Feb 11, 2014

dblas said:
Del. Smigiel received a reply to this question, I posted it over in the "No more SBRs" thread.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2960803&postcount=1107

They do it the same as the Feds.

And yet the AG still won't answer the damn questions about NFA guns. The conspiracy theorist in me is almost wondering if he's got the opinion and is stalling release because it's rather favorable to us.

annihilation-time · Feb 11, 2014

erwos said:
And yet the AG still won't answer the damn questions about NFA guns. The conspiracy theorist in me is almost wondering if he's got the opinion and is stalling release because it's rather favorable to us.

I think we will have a clear answer when the legislative session is over. They need anything favorable to gun owners to go over as quietly as possible. They'll wait until the media and politicians go home.

tc617 · Feb 11, 2014

erwos said:
I love how people think I'm always making this shit up. Please read this letter from 2011:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=...3NDc2NmItOWVlZi00NjEzLTlhMzYtZTgxM2FiNzBkMGU3

erwos · Feb 11, 2014

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Pinecone · Feb 11, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Can you please provide a link to them? It would not surprise me one bit. However what he posted was ATF standard. I have never heard of anyone doing different without it expressly written into the law. Everything always reverts back to ATF standards if not addressed by the state. Maybe not 100% for sure legally but 99.9% of the time.

After all how do you measure what is the barrel? Does the chamber count? A crown on the barrel? How about barrel extensions? What if you can't even see the tip of the barrel with the muzzle devices pinned on? ATF standard actually makes the most sense of any of these stupid ass ways of doing it. The real answer is stop worrying about barrel length and OAL. All criminals can get saws!

I did earlier in this thread, along with the quotes.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

They specify with the barrel length measurement, but not with the OAL. They do say muzzle, but they are not clear about muzzle devices.

For the barrel, it is easy, chamber closed, stick a rod in until it contacts the breech and mark the rod at the end of any non-removeable device. Remove and measure from mark to the end.

Also, the OAL measurement is parallel to the bore. So no muzzle to lower tip of the stock length.

SBR questions?

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