AR-15: M4 or A2 or A4 profile

null · Mar 31, 2014

303_enfield said:
One lower + the three uppers you are looking at

Yeah and if you don't permanently affix the castle nut you can switch the buffer and buttstock out in a few minutes. Ah the beauty of a modular platform.

Hopalong · Mar 31, 2014

armed ferret said:
Why does 200 yards mandate a 20" barrel?

The perpetuation of the myth that 4" of barrel somehow renders the gun useless beyond 25 yards is ridiculous. I'll be shooting a 16" ar15 at 300 on saturday. Betcha I do just fine.

It's not a myth. It's 100% true for some shooters. Heck, it used to be 100% true for me.

If you rely on a 100 yard zero and don't know how to compensate for the additional drop, that loss of 4" of barrel length will really kill your effective range. Not the effective range of the weapon mind you, your effective range to hit your target. Or even the ground near your target. Broad side of a barn is questionable.

Moral of the story: high drop != short range. Learn to compensate.

(Yes, I used to be a really bad rifle shooter. Now I'm a bit better.)

Magnumite · Mar 31, 2014

I've shot to nearly 200 yards with both a 20" HBAR and a 16" standard barrel and there was very little change in trajectory. Both had virtually the same sight settings and same loads used.

armed ferret · Mar 31, 2014

Hopalong said:
It's not a myth. It's 100% true for some shooters. Heck, it used to be 100% true for me.

If you rely on a 100 yard zero and don't know how to compensate for the additional drop, that loss of 4" of barrel length will really kill your effective range. Not the effective range of the weapon mind you, your effective range to hit your target. Or even the ground near your target. Broad side of a barn is questionable.

Moral of the story: high drop != short range. Learn to compensate.

(Yes, I used to be a really bad rifle shooter. Now I'm a bit better.)

The trajectory change at 200 yards, with a 100-yard zero, between the two will be an absolute maximum of 2-3 inches.

If that's enough that you can't hit the target, you have far bigger issues that won't be solved by simply using a longer barrel.

ericoak · Apr 4, 2014

I thought the issue with 16" barrel was a smaller range before the round stops fragmenting. Especially with the really short barrels.

The Canadians have 20" barrels with collapsable stocks I believe.

johnnyb2 · Apr 5, 2014

I have been itching to build a 16" A2. That way, you can always change uppers of course, but, the A2 stock seems nice and stable. Good look to it also. I have build a few lowers with many different stocks, carbines, SOPMOD, M4, CTR, MOE, CTR with R.I.S.R.( I really like this one for optic/iron line of sight ) but would like to build a A2 next.

Nice thing is, you have OPTIONS!@ hahahaah Good luck and post some pics when you are done.

armed ferret · Apr 5, 2014

ericoak said:
I thought the issue with 16" barrel was a smaller range before the round stops fragmenting. Especially with the really short barrels.

Fragmenting? Someone's been reading the good ol ammo oracle huh? :lol2:

One of our dismount team leaders got a 300-yard running one-shot drop on an armed insurgent in late 2012 with his M4/m68. The round and barrel length are plenty for 200 yard paper work.

Brent · Apr 5, 2014

Yeah barrel length isnt a huge factor on these rifles save for their gas systems. I ring steel at 350 yards with my m4 clone. But if i were you id go with what im proficient at. If youre used to the a2/4 style get that. You can always buy a 16" upper farther down the road. Which you probably will anyways. My .02

Bolts Rock · Apr 6, 2014

armed ferret said:
Why does 200 yards mandate a 20" barrel?

The perpetuation of the myth that 4" of barrel somehow renders the gun useless beyond 25 yards is ridiculous. I'll be shooting a 16" ar15 at 300 on saturday. Betcha I do just fine.

Slightly more sight radius with irons.

To answer the OP, you can put a full length Ace skeleton stock on the lower, build a 20" A4 upper and a 16" upper to get some of both worlds.

armed ferret · Apr 6, 2014

If you want rifle length sight radius, dissipator. Or a 15" rail like the MCSR and a fixed sight at the end of it.

Bolts Rock · Apr 6, 2014

armed ferret said:
If you want rifle length sight radius, dissipator. Or a 15" rail like the MCSR and a fixed sight at the end of it.

A2 or A4 are required for High Power Service Rifle.

echo6mike · Apr 7, 2014

Bolts Rock said:
Slightly more sight radius with irons.

To answer the OP, you can put a full length Ace skeleton stock on the lower, build a 20" A4 upper and a 16" upper to get some of both worlds.

Those skeleton stocks look interesting - how do they feel and hold up compared to either an old A2 type stock or an adjustable M4 type?

Never knew about them before.

And what I'm thinking is going to be the first version will be a rifle-length upper first, then do a carbine topper later. Iron sights all the way, too!

Until I can some day afford a good ACOG sight.

cheers,
OP

4095fanatic · Apr 7, 2014

Rifle with A2 first, then the carbine in A4 is how I'd do it. JMO.

photoracer · Apr 7, 2014

Minuteman said:
Not bad. Stag is best known for making rifles for left handed shooters. Are you a lefty?

Also check out Daniel Defense and AAC. Wait, check this first, the Harpe from Ares Armor: http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/aa_BAupper

They aren't shipping them yet, but you don't sound like you are in a hurry.

To answer your question, the 5.56 was designed and ideal at 20". But what little you lose in velocity is relatively insignificant. I agree most 5.56 AR's are ideal 200 meter guns that can work out to 600m if the gun and shooter are dialed in. I like being able to also use one for Home Defense (HD), so my preference if I could only have one... 16", with adjustable stock and small light, 2 point sling, flattop piccatinny, red dot and back up irons.

Ps I'm not an AR guy, someone will be along shortly with much better advice.

No I agree. I also agree with the person who said you can't have just one. Built an A2 in 6.8 although I stripped the upper down and replaced everything but the receiver and barrel. Also built a 14.5" M4 for SHTF/HD use. Pinned a PSA Pigsticker Comp on the end of a PSA 14.5" medium profile barrel. 7" Samson Evo handguard, Ace Entry short skeleton stock, Umbrella Corp vertical handgrip, YHM clamp on GB w/flip up sight, Matech rear sight, Geissele SSA trigger, Blackhawk front vertical grip, SG 280 lumen tactical light, NcSTAR (yeah I know) red dot/laser sight full co-witness. A lot lighter and handier than my 3-gun AR also. If I can hit at 300y I'm OK with that. Could do it with the open sights also or a scope as I have extras. I have fired it some but plan on using it at one of the NRA NDM matches this year also. Also have an 11.5" barrel that I plan on pinning a 4.5" FH on as an alternative. Was going to suppress that one but don't feel like it right now.
Anyway if you build either an M4 or an A2 just make sure you use good parts. I have based all mine on lowers I have build myself, either PSA or Aero-Precision. As for uppers some I have bought complete and some I have built from stripped uppers. I have only bought complete uppers from either Stag or PSA. Not because of anything except the need at the time or a special price.

armed ferret · Apr 7, 2014

Bolts Rock said:
A2 or A4 are required for High Power Service Rifle.

I missed the part where OP mentioned wanting to build a gun for competition.

echo6mike · Apr 7, 2014

armed ferret said:
I missed the part where OP mentioned wanting to build a gun for competition.

That's right, because it wasn't there

I want to do some medium-long (500 yd) shooting just to see if I can still hit the black at that range, but I'm not looking to get into serious competition.

Just a rifle that I can have fun with, or switch into more of a HD config.

Hence the A2 style first then M4 swap.

So, where do I find a decent one-piece A2 style upper? Precision1 makes some traditional fully A2 uppers, complete and test-fired, but I don't know about their quality.

I'll go search around this place for more sources. Or end up wih a flat-top receiver and a good removable carry handle/rear sight...

armed ferret · Apr 7, 2014

rock river makes a damn decent complete upper that's tough to beat.....as does BCM.

Boom Boom · Apr 7, 2014

IMO, for HD, nothing beats a non-NFA 14.5" pencil barrel, like the BCM midlength with permanent extended bird cage. I have two of the BCM's. Balance and maneuverability is fantastic.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-14lw.htm

OR

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-EAG-HS-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-package-p/bcm-uh-eag2-hs.htm

Bolts Rock · Apr 7, 2014

echo6mike said:
Those skeleton stocks look interesting - how do they feel and hold up compared to either an old A2 type stock or an adjustable M4 type?

Never knew about them before.

And what I'm thinking is going to be the first version will be a rifle-length upper first, then do a carbine topper later. Iron sights all the way, too!

Until I can some day afford a good ACOG sight.

cheers,
OP

Don't know how they hold up as mine is less than a year old. It feels fine, like a soft surfaced A2. I don't like the M4 collapsible but I have a Magpul STR and it's fine too. Like just about any rifle I need more length of pull to really be comfortable.....ook, ook.

Bolts Rock · Apr 7, 2014

echo6mike said:
So, where do I find a decent one-piece A2 style upper? Precision1 makes some traditional fully A2 uppers, complete and test-fired, but I don't know about their quality.

I'll go search around this place for more sources. Or end up wih a flat-top receiver and a good removable carry handle/rear sight...

Define decent and set a budget. Rock River makes a good one as does White Oak Armament. Premiums one from White Oak Precision, Gene Clark, Compass Lake (all match grade $$).

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