SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

krucam · Jun 11, 2012

esqappellate said:
Maybe. There doesn't seem to be a dissent on the panel and that will speed it up. And this court acts pretty fast as a rule (unlike the 9th). And that would correspond with the departure of existing clerks and the arrival of new ones. Still, 60 days is fast for any court of appeals to act, so I tend to think that 60 days is doable, but optimistic.

The April '12 session at CA7 concludes sometime after Aug 8th. The September '12 session picks up Sept 5th.

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/cal/argcalendar.pdf

If they intend to get it out within the argued April '12 session, 60 days would be about right. If they don't care about dragging it into the next session, all bets are off!

Patrick · Jun 11, 2012

mr h said:
OK... I'm thinking out loud again...

But doesn't that place the onus back on the state and legislature to find a way to argue for "sensitive places", etc. without unduly hindering the exercise of the right?

I would hope that there could be some form of common template compiled from across the existing carry-friendly states, that an agreeable list (not necessarily boiler-plate, but common nonetheless) can be put in play.

Now we know MD will try to stretch TPM to the breaking point, but to my (layman's) thinking, the sorts of wide-ranging restrictions we can imagine them going for (days ending in Y, within 2 miles of a school...) would just tick off the Court rather than meet the needs of the rulings we anticipate.

Maryland has had carry permits - including unrestricted permits - for decades and not required onerous TPMs. Why do we need one now?

That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

Mr H · Jun 11, 2012

Patrick said:
Maryland has had carry permits - including unrestricted permits - for decades and not required onerous TPMs. Why do we need one now?

That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

Completely with you on that... but we can be 99 44/100% sure they'll try anyway!

esqappellate · Jun 11, 2012

Patrick said:
Maryland has had carry permits - including unrestricted permits - for decades and not required onerous TPMs. Why do we need one now?
That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

Cuz the great unwashed (and the politically unconnected) are going to get permits if Woollard wins, that's why!! :rolleyes:

Sundazes · Jun 11, 2012

Sorry if this has been asked before but I can't find it in the 500 pages. I come up on 90 days on weds. What should those of us do who are in the same boat?

esqappellate · Jun 11, 2012

sundazes said:
Sorry if this has been asked before but I can't find it in the 500 pages. I come up on 90 days on weds. What should those of us do who are in the same boat?

No one here will attempt to tell you what to do. If you are among those who applied after the decision but before the stay (like moi), I personally would do absolutely nothing. If the stay is lifted, they they will have to act. If you force them to act before the stay is lifted and your application is unsupported by G&S reason, then they are within their rights to deny your application on that ground.

MJD438 · Jun 11, 2012

sundazes said:
Sorry if this has been asked before but I can't find it in the 500 pages. I come up on 90 days on weds. What should those of us do who are in the same boat?

From what I have seen, MSI has not taken a position as of yet. The opinion from many seems spilt between passing it to the Review Board and sitting on it until Left rules on the stay.

Personally, I fall in the later category.

Gray Peterson · Jun 11, 2012

esqappellate said:
Maybe. There doesn't seem to be a dissent on the panel and that will speed it up. And this court acts pretty fast as a rule (unlike the 9th). And that would correspond with the departure of existing clerks and the arrival of new ones. Still, 60 days is fast for any court of appeals to act, so I tend to think that 60 days is doable, but optimistic.

Edit: I just did a quick Westlaw search on opinions authored by Judge Posner. Of the opinions released this year, they were all about 2-3 months with a few of less than 2 months (except for an en banc case that took 9 months and was per curiam). So 60 days could well be quite reasonable.

It's on a preliminary injunction so it get's handled faster. Death penalty appeals, then criminal appeals, then prelim injunctions, then civil MSJ's, then civil trial appeals.

Patrick · Jun 11, 2012

esqappellate said:
No one here will attempt to tell you what to do. If you are among those who applied after the decision but before the stay (like moi), I personally would do absolutely nothing. If the stay is lifted, they they will have to act. If you force them to act before the stay is lifted and your application is unsupported by G&S reason, then they are within their rights to deny your application on that ground.

What he said, is my personal advice.

esqappellate · Jun 11, 2012

Gray Peterson said:
It's on a preliminary injunction so it get's handled faster. Death penalty appeals, then criminal appeals, then prelim injunctions, then civil MSJ's, then civil trial appeals.

Sure, criminal matters, especially death penalty cases, get priority. Civil matters turn on the complexity of the case and whether there is a dissent or whether there are factual issues or a lot of difficult legal issues. And of course on the panel and how busy these judges and their clerks are at the time the case is submitted after argument. The 7th Circuit moved this case to argument *very* quickly and that leads me to think we will get a quick decision.

Nobody · Jun 11, 2012

swinokur said:
And with G & S gone, whatever TPM restrictions they enact, they will apply equally to all.

While in theory you are correct, I HIGHLY doubt a OFF duty MSP or other cop would get busted for a TPM infraction the way a scrub like you or me would be.

NOBODY

ToneGrail · Jun 11, 2012

Nobody said:
While in theory you are correct, I HIGHLY doubt a OFF duty MSP or other cop would get busted for a TPM infraction the way a scrub like you or me would be.

NOBODY

Well maybe not LE, but to a non-LE political crony, it would be much more harder sell to justify carrying in a prohibited place once word got out.

Off-duty full-time LE carrying in "gun-free-zones" are a bit of a grey area when the officer is within his own state. Technically they have 24/7 arrest powers and it could be argued that they are on duty 24/7. Now if they were out of state it would be much harder to justify carrying in a restricted area since they have no arrest authority.

Nobody · Jun 11, 2012

ToneGrail said:
Well maybe not LE, but to a non-LE political crony, it would be much more harder sell to justify carrying in a prohibited place once word got out.

Off-duty full-time LE carrying in "gun-free-zones" are a bit of a grey area when the officer is within his own state. Technically they have 24/7 arrest powers and it could be argued that they are on duty 24/7. Now if they were out of state it would be much harder to justify carrying in a restricted area since they have no arrest authority.

I change my person carrying to "Anyone of the elite" that is not a cop. Just like if you were doing 105 around the capital beltway you would have been locked up, yet a PG county council woman was let go w/o so much as a ticket.

Things will be level and above board.....BULL SH**

NOBODY

Bob A · Jun 11, 2012

TPM = Time, Place, Manner. Refers to conditions imposed on carrying a weapon.

For those, like me, who have been wondering for a while.

swinokur · Jun 11, 2012

Nobody said:
While in theory you are correct, I HIGHLY doubt a OFF duty MSP or other cop would get busted for a TPM infraction the way a scrub like you or me would be.

NOBODY

Except LE doesn't need a LTCF so your point isn't valid.

Patrick · Jun 11, 2012

Bob A said:
TPM = Time, Place, Manner. Refers to conditions imposed on carrying a weapon.

For those, like me, who have been wondering for a while.

Sorry. 10,000 posts into this and everyone talks like we know WTF* is going on.

*WTF = "What The ..." (Nevermind) :lol2:

Sundazes · Jun 11, 2012

esqappellate said:
No one here will attempt to tell you what to do. If you are among those who applied after the decision but before the stay (like moi), I personally would do absolutely nothing. If the stay is lifted, they they will have to act. If you force them to act before the stay is lifted and your application is unsupported by G&S reason, then they are within their rights to deny your application on that ground.

Thanks Esp. That is exactly what I was looking for. I should have asked differently like what are people doing.
Thanks for all you have done for the MDS family.

esqappellate · Jun 11, 2012

sundazes said:
Thanks Esp. That is exactly what I was looking for. I should have asked differently like what are people doing.
Thanks for all you have done for the MDS family.

Good luck. We will have some answers from the courts soon (meaning this year which is soon for constitutional litigation).

Biggfoot44 · Jun 11, 2012

As to applicnts and * deadlines * :

For those of us form whom actually receiving a permit in quasi-timley manner , letting things ride for the moment seems to be the best alternative.

Those who take a long range activist view could see the value of appealing to the board to pin down on record the practices of the MSP and Appeals Board to pave the way to future reform of the issueing process thru litagation and/ or public pressure. But at the expense of near certain denial now.

In the long run we will need a buncha volountary Test Cases to overcome 40yrs of " when we see it " and " because we feel like it " .

esqappellate · Jun 11, 2012

Biggfoot44 said:
As to applicnts and * deadlines * :

For those of us form whom actually receiving a permit in quasi-timley manner , letting things ride for the moment seems to be the best alternative.

Those who take a long range activist view could see the value of appealing to the board to pin down on record the practices of the MSP and Appeals Board to pave the way to future reform of the issueing process thru litagation and/ or public pressure. But at the expense of near certain denial now.

In the long run we will need a buncha volountary Test Cases to overcome 40yrs of " when we see it " and " because we feel like it " .

Maybe not, Bigfoot, maybe not. Sometimes they can and do change when faced with an injunction. Them suits, well they be expensive and embarrassing ..

SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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