Spent Shell Casing Cost

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  • tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    Does anyone know how much money, if any, goes to MSP when this procedure is done? I know the FFL has to pay someone a fee to get the casing, but was wondering if MSP gets any money from it other than what our tax dollars fund. OR in this case HAVEN'T funded since 2010!!

    Trying to write testimony and doing a little research. Figured someone here might know.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Does anyone know how much money, if any, goes to MSP when this procedure is done? I know the FFL has to pay someone a fee to get the casing, but was wondering if MSP gets any money from it other than what our tax dollars fund. OR in this case HAVEN'T funded since 2010!!

    Trying to write testimony and doing a little research. Figured someone here might know.

    AFAIK, all MSP gets is the $10 application fee. But, the buyer is still on the hook for the fee (which can vary widely), and some FFLs have to make arrangements to get the fired casing as they might not have the proper license or facilities.

    Plus, as the friggin' machine went OOS in '04, it's been a completely ridiculous program.

    If you haven't already done so, take a look at SB281 Blaster's info on this.

    https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3055032&postcount=40
     

    tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    I'm good H. I was in Smigiel's office on Wed. morning when some of us found out that interesting info along with the fact that the machine had been sold on Ebay in 2010!!!! And that the program had been de-funded also
    But they STILL have to PAY SOMEONE to take the casing and walk in the basement and toss it into the 55 gal. drums or whatever bulk storage they are using. Such a waste of resources and our MONEY!!!!
     

    mopar92

    Official MDS Court Jester
    May 5, 2011
    9,513
    Taneytown
    The fee is paid to the FFL 07 (manufacturer) to manufacture a fired shell casing. No money goes to MSP. Or any government agency.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    I'm good H. I was in Smigiel's office on Wed. morning when some of us found out that interesting info along with the fact that the machine had been sold on Ebay in 2010!!!! And that the program had been de-funded also
    But they STILL have to PAY SOMEONE to take the casing and walk in the basement and toss it into the 55 gal. drums or whatever bulk storage they are using. Such a waste of resources and our MONEY!!!!

    Yeah... this is a big piece. In a program with no funding.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Forget the $10 fee. I'd like to know the total cost (including the MSP manpower and equipment used to track this). I have seen estimates dating back to 2002 (ish) from an NRA bulletin that it costs $5,000 per casing.

    Is there any documentation or proof the machine was sold? Are they using something else (the shell casing itself might not be relevant if they electronically scan it)? I heard this in the testimony I was kind of floored, I though the 55gal drum stories were urban legend.

    Surely the shell casings from the guns (I and others) bought last year did not vanish into storage like the Lost Ark at the end of Indiana Jones.
     

    tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    Don't forget that the program itself is said to have never solved a single crime.

    http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/swift_certai...umber_1_05.pdf

    I found this article on the internet about a court case in 2005 that would indicate that the spent shell casing law solved at least 1 crime in 2005 and that the machine must have been working at that time. Or it would appear so from the way the article reads.

    Still not enough to justify it's existance. also see my post #194 ish in the foster a bill thread for some more info
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/swift_certai...umber_1_05.pdf

    I found this article on the internet about a court case in 2005 that would indicate that the spent shell casing law solved at least 1 crime in 2005 and that the machine must have been working at that time. Or it would appear so from the way the article reads.

    Still not enough to justify it's existance. also see my post #194 ish in the foster a bill thread for some more info

    The link does not work.

    From my understanding, the shell casing law has allowed the MSP to link guns to about 24 crimes - over what, 14 years and a million guns?

    Linking guns is not solving the crime. It means they started with a suspect/gun and used the casing to link them back. It does not mean they started with the casing and it led them to a suspect.

    Out of 235 ish homicides last year, 37 this year, how many were linked using the shell casings? 0.00%
     

    A1Uni

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 28, 2012
    4,842
    The fee is paid to the FFL 07 (manufacturer) to manufacture a fired shell casing. No money goes to MSP. Or any government agency.

    /\
    THIS

    Also many handgun manufacturers include a casing when they ship a handgun, negating the need for an 07 FFL in MD to collect one.
     

    Deep Creek Rock

    .._. .._ _._. _._ .._
    OK... Devil's Advocate for a second...

    Assuming this is correct, and this program had proven effective, why then would MSP not look to repair the equipment.
    I'm thinking there's a tweak in that report somewhere...

    Because its not effective, & the MSP knows this. That spent shell case law is just ******** to deter people from buying handguns. Same thing with the HQL. It does NOTHING to make the streets safer, prevent crimes and is just to make the idiotic politicians look good to the ill-informed people who vote for them. Same thing with that stupid omega lock.

    Maryland cares more about protecting criminals, then law abiding tax paying citizens who want to protect themselves and their family.
     

    tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    What's funny is that in 2005 MSP asked that the program be scrapped due to ineffectiveness. In the same year Smigiel , Conoway and one other del. submitted a bill asking for it's repeal!!
     

    Half-cocked

    Senior Meatbag
    Mar 14, 2006
    23,937
    As far as I know, they have never been able to trace a gun used in a crime, by finding spent shell casings at a crime scene, using the program.

    They HAVE produced fired shell casings from the system that matched fired shell casings from a gun used in a crime, AFTER the gun itself was ALREADY recovered and brought into evidence. This is simply laughable, in terms of rationalizing or justifying the program. It literally adds nothing to support a case.
     

    tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    www.ndaa.org/pdf/swift_certain_volume_3_number_1_05.pdf
    Try this link for the story.

    According to the very first 5 sentences they recovered 10 shell casings from the crime scene and used the database to find a spent casing that matched and THEN tried to find the gun. I am NOT a proponent of this I just want my testimony to be FACTUAL. If I'm going to sit in front of these guys I want to KNOW the facts as they REALLY are. Not like we might want or have heard they are. I have learned a lot about the shell casing program in the last 72 hours.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    www.ndaa.org/pdf/swift_certain_volume_3_number_1_05.pdf
    Try this link for the story.

    According to the very first 5 sentences they recovered 10 shell casings from the crime scene and used the database to find a spent casing that matched and THEN tried to find the gun. I am NOT a proponent of this I just want my testimony to be FACTUAL. If I'm going to sit in front of these guys I want to KNOW the facts as they REALLY are. Not like we might want or have heard they are. I have learned a lot about the shell casing program in the last 72 hours.

    Carefully re read the document paying particular attention to the section marked 4. As I read it they learned by investigation that the girlfriend had recently purchased handguns (plural) from a retailer. From the retailer they got copies of the paperwork which showed one was a .40 caliber. The lead detective then contacted the MSP based on the paperwork and ascertained that the MSP had the casing from the girlfriends gun in the data base. He then had the crime scene casings compared to the case in the database which showed a match.

    Neither the crime scene shell casings nor the database lead to either the girlfriend nor criminal instead the investigation lead the police to the casing in the database through paperwork.

    How critical this, linking the gun to the shooter, was to the case would depend on the other evidence and testimony in the case.

    There was only a matter of weeks between the purchase of the gun and the crime, hardly enough time to even shoot many rounds. One of the failures of shell case identification is the markings on the casings change over time as the gun wears.

    The way most people think the fired shell case database works is the police pick up a fired shell case from a semi automatic at a crime scene (most revolvers do not eject cases). The police scan the shell case and a computer magically matches the case with one in the database. That match then points to the gun owner and the case is solved. The write up in the PDF was intended to give that impression even though that is not what happened.

    I hope my analysis will help you with your testimony.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    What people don't realize is for a MD Dealer to do the shell casing they need an 07 FFL, BUT most 07's don't realize that they also need to submit for ITAR (US State Department). This costs $2200+ EACH YEAR, even if you DONT export or manufacture anything. You still have to register. Fines for non-compliance, each year can approach 1 MILLION dollars and jail time of 3+ years for each violation.

    BATFE is looking at this when they do FFL inspections and they WILL inform the State Department if a 07 is not compliant.


    All that to sell handguns that don't have shell casings.
     

    tsmith1499

    Poor C&R Collector
    Jan 10, 2012
    4,253
    Southern Mount Airy, Md.
    Carefully re read the document paying particular attention to the section marked 4. As I read it they learned by investigation that the girlfriend had recently purchased handguns (plural) from a retailer. From the retailer they got copies of the paperwork which showed one was a .40 caliber. The lead detective then contacted the MSP based on the paperwork and ascertained that the MSP had the casing from the girlfriends gun in the data base. He then had the crime scene casings compared to the case in the database which showed a match.

    Neither the crime scene shell casings nor the database lead to either the girlfriend nor criminal instead the investigation lead the police to the casing in the database through paperwork.

    How critical this, linking the gun to the shooter, was to the case would depend on the other evidence and testimony in the case.

    There was only a matter of weeks between the purchase of the gun and the crime, hardly enough time to even shoot many rounds. One of the failures of shell case identification is the markings on the casings change over time as the gun wears.

    The way most people think the fired shell case database works is the police pick up a fired shell case from a semi automatic at a crime scene (most revolvers do not eject cases). The police scan the shell case and a computer magically matches the case with one in the database. That match then points to the gun owner and the case is solved. The write up in the PDF was intended to give that impression even though that is not what happened.

    I hope my analysis will help you with your testimony.

    What people don't realize is for a MD Dealer to do the shell casing they need an 07 FFL, BUT most 07's don't realize that they also need to submit for ITAR (US State Department). This costs $2200+ EACH YEAR, even if you DONT export or manufacture anything. You still have to register. Fines for non-compliance, each year can approach 1 MILLION dollars and jail time of 3+ years for each violation.

    BATFE is looking at this when they do FFL inspections and they WILL inform the State Department if a 07 is not compliant.


    All that to sell handguns that don't have shell casings.

    Thank you both. I have incorporated this into my written testimony.
     

    GTOGUNNER

    IANAL, PATRIOT PICKET!!
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 16, 2010
    5,492
    Carroll County!
    I know of a case that was solved via shell casing. I think the PG county Sargent is stll in jail.

    Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    Anyone remember what DaMais (or anyone else) said when the amendment was introduced last year to drop the program. It would be interested to read that back to them with the other information that has been given about the NY, California, and MSP report!
     

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