The role of the armed citizen/carry permit holder

montoya32 · Mar 29, 2015

joppaj said:
Sounds like good advice.

I guess that looks different for each person. There are some that develop "nerve" because they are carrying, but that "nerve" has no substance. If you have been a puss all your life, a gun doesn't make you a man. If you have been a man all your life, a gun doesn't mean sh*t.

montoya32 · Mar 29, 2015

Blaster229 said:
If you find yourself finding yourself going towards a situation that may require self defense, you're probably doing it wrong.

Since active shooter was mentioned in the OP, let's throw this predicament in for some thought.

You are making your retreat from an active shooter ahead, but while trying to remove yourself from the equation, you come upon a bleeding injured person who cannot walk, what do you (or wife with kid) do?

You help. Not because you're armed, but because you're human and in my case, because I would want someone to do the same for me or my family.

Blaster229 · Mar 30, 2015

montoya32 said:
You help. Not because you're armed, but because you're human and in my case, because I would want someone to do the same for me or my family.

Playing devil's advocate here :-)

So, this means you are staying in the fight.
Do you keep your family with you to also help or have them run away without you, defenseless while you try and help a stranger?
Who is more important?
Is this any different than trying to prevent someone from being shot? Going after that active shooter, since he is going after someone's family.

How much can you do for that person in this situation while you could come under fire?

Just a lot for a person to think about. Tactically and morally.

I just say these things because first responders in an active shooter scenario have to ignore the wounded on the floor in order to go fight the bad guy. That is until more help arrives and distance from the shooter becomes farther.
It sucks, but the objective is to get the bad guy.
What's your role as a defender of your family?
If you're solo, then do what you want.
Just something to think about.

montoya32 · Mar 30, 2015

Blaster229 said:
Playing devil's advocate here :-)

So, this means you are staying in the fight.
Do you keep your family with you to also help or have them run away without you, defenseless while you try and help a stranger?
Who is more important?
Is this any different than trying to prevent someone from being shot? Going after that active shooter, since he is going after someone's family.

How much can you do for that person in this situation while you could come under fire?

Just a lot for a person to think about. Tactically and morally.

I just say these things because as first responders in an active shooter scenario have to ignore the wounded on the floor in order to go fight the bad guy.
It sucks, but the objective is to get the bad guy.
What's your role as a defender of your family?
If you're solo, then do what you want.
Just something to think about.

Lots of variable. My family is priority number 1. If I cannot get them to a secure and safe place, then I stay with them. If I can get them to a place where they are well removed from anticipated danger and I have the reasonable option to return and help the wounded or elderly/children, the. I do it. Just thinking now, I try not to increase the possibility of injury. Not being LEO, I don't think my job is to pursue the attacker, just to assist others with injuries or to remove themselves from potential danger.

ADR · Mar 30, 2015

montoya32 said:
I guess that looks different for each person. There are some that develop "nerve" because they are carrying, but that "nerve" has no substance. If you have been a puss all your life, a gun doesn't make you a man. If you have been a man all your life, a gun doesn't mean sh*t.

Being a "man all your life" doesn't necessarily mean sh*t either when it comes to a shocking/psychologically traumatic event or situation you've never encountered. (Not saying you personally, just a general statement because I don't know you.)

The real bitch of situations like that are that you really don't know how anyone will react until it happens, especially if they've never encountered something similar.

rico903 · Mar 30, 2015

Pretoria78 said:
While I don't reside in Maryland anymore, my thoughts on being a permit holder are simple. Carrying a handgun on my person is for my protection, and for my wife. I'm not Billy Bad A**, and I don't have any sort of hero complex. Like you've adumbrated, it's to facilitate myself and my wife getting home safely. This means avoiding stupid people, in stupid places, doing stupid things. This means checking my ego at the door and not getting into any sort of road rage type incidents or verbal altercations that have the potential to escalate. If I witness a crime going down, and it doesn't involve a direct threat to my person, I call the police and be a good witness.

This is what I think.

Completely agree and if Georgr Zimmerman had the same mindset he would have saved himself a whole lot of trouble. A classic example of the "I can stop a bad guy" mindset.

smokey · Mar 30, 2015

Blaster229 said:
Playing devil's advocate here :-)

So, this means you are staying in the fight.
Do you keep your family with you to also help or have them run away without you, defenseless while you try and help a stranger?
Who is more important?
Is this any different than trying to prevent someone from being shot? Going after that active shooter, since he is going after someone's family.

How much can you do for that person in this situation while you could come under fire?

Just a lot for a person to think about. Tactically and morally.

I just say these things because first responders in an active shooter scenario have to ignore the wounded on the floor in order to go fight the bad guy. That is until more help arrives and distance from the shooter becomes farther.
It sucks, but the objective is to get the bad guy.
What's your role as a defender of your family?
If you're solo, then do what you want.
Just something to think about.

Yup, plus there's the whole "myth of the bad-guy" thing....where it is 100% clear who is the aggressor and who is the victim in any situation you stumble into. There's many times where what looks like an attacker is actually a victim defending themselves. Is that guy grabbing a backpack off the back of another guy and clobbering him in the back of the head a robber, or are the the husband of the woman that just got robbed getting the bag back?

It's another reason why deescalation is a good thing. Once things have boiled over and bullets fly, you can't pull them back. If you don't act, at least you can still be a witness in an investigation.

Speaking to the witness piece...the ability to calm yourself down and purposely scan the situation to gather information is very important. Scanning the whole scene to figure out to the best of your ability could also save your life. Here's an example of where tunnel vision was harmful to the responding ccw'er...
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-las-vegas-shooting-20140611-story.html

In the seemingly unrelated teacher-world I live in, there have been plenty of times where students become aggressive and I've got to deal with the situation. It would be easy to just act and forget the record-keeping side of it, but afterwards I'd be more open to someone claiming I was the aggressor...and it weakens my story if I can't remember basic things leading up to the event.

4g64loser · Mar 30, 2015

Blaster229, as usual, makes many good points often overlooked by people visualizing potential encounters. Rule Number One: I am responsible for myself and my unit/team/family (I don't have a family). Rule Number Two: No medicine in a gunfight. If I can extract wounded noncombatants without increased threat to myself/my team then I will but I am not a trained medic. Any chance of CNS damage is likely to be increased by an untrained person (me) making a decision to move the wounded person.

BigT · Apr 19, 2015

smokey0118 said:
Yup, plus there's the whole "myth of the bad-guy" thing....where it is 100% clear who is the aggressor and who is the victim in any situation you stumble into. There's many times where what looks like an attacker is actually a victim defending themselves. Is that guy grabbing a backpack off the back of another guy and clobbering him in the back of the head a robber, or are the the husband of the woman that just got robbed getting the bag back?

My biggest fears of intervening are:

- Identifying the bad guy(s) – what if the guy shooting is a plain clothes LEO
- A nervous LEO shooting the first gunman he sees – these situations are confusing enough and I’m not going to make it worse… Mine would stay holstered unless the scumbag is shooting at me, mine or in our direction..

BigT · Apr 19, 2015

Blaster229 said:
Playing devil's advocate here :-)

So, this means you are staying in the fight.
Do you keep your family with you to also help or have them run away without you, defenseless while you try and help a stranger?
Who is more important?
Is this any different than trying to prevent someone from being shot? Going after that active shooter, since he is going after someone's family.

How much can you do for that person in this situation while you could come under fire?

Just a lot for a person to think about. Tactically and morally.

I just say these things because first responders in an active shooter scenario have to ignore the wounded on the floor in order to go fight the bad guy. That is until more help arrives and distance from the shooter becomes farther.
It sucks, but the objective is to get the bad guy.
What's your role as a defender of your family?
If you're solo, then do what you want.
Just something to think about.

Lots to think about - this scenario...

To me, helping some one who is down and wounded while I’m moving to protect my loved ones is retreating, and doesn’t really mean I’m still in the fight – I never was in it to begin with… You’re not fighting if you’re retreating - dragging some one out of the line of fire while shepherding your loved ones to cover seems like the best solution..

While much time in training is devoted to seemingly unwinnable situations like the one described, when all is said and done, you have to be able to live with your actions – or failure to act… You watch some one die and it will never leave you - if you’re capable of giving aid to some one who is down, and refuse to do so to save your own skin.. That's just not the code I live by..

MikeTF · Apr 19, 2015

There's no reason to over think anything. Most people here are good folks. If they're in a situation, they'll do the right thing.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 20, 2015

Too Ludite to do links , but google " The hazards of intervention " by Evan Marshall.

Highlights : You won't know who is BG , who is victim momentarily gaining upper hand. Won't know who is plainclothes LE and who is arestee . You Can probably identify an armed robber , but you won't know about any seeded backup with him. ( There IS a tipping point in armed robberies , but seperate discussion.)

Once at least two random victims have been shot , an active shooter would pretty well be identified at that point , but if any means exist to get your family and loved ones out of Dodge , that comes first.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 20, 2015

To be more specific on those "Stupid things" ; Don't buy or sell illegal drugs. Don't fool around with other people's wife/ girlfriend. Don't cheat at cards/ dice . Don't hang out in sleazy bars.

Those will cover 90% + of homicide / attempt victims. Of the rest that apply to non-criminals , work related armed robberies gone wrong largest single catagory.

grayson71 · Apr 23, 2015

Pretoria78 said:
While I don't reside in Maryland anymore, my thoughts on being a permit holder are simple. Carrying a handgun on my person is for my protection, and for my wife. I'm not Billy Bad A**, and I don't have any sort of hero complex. Like you've adumbrated, it's to facilitate myself and my wife getting home safely. This means avoiding stupid people, in stupid places, doing stupid things. This means checking my ego at the door and not getting into any sort of road rage type incidents or verbal altercations that have the potential to escalate. If I witness a crime going down, and it doesn't involve a direct threat to my person, I call the police and be a good witness.

This is what I think.

this x1000

grayson71 · Apr 23, 2015

joppaj said:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...97038-avoidance-deterrence-de-escalation.html

Sums it up pretty well.

words to live by right there...

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