So are MACs good to go now?

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  • Kingjamez

    Gun Builder
    Oct 22, 2009
    2,042
    Fairfax, VA
    I don't see any reason that MSP would change the <16", after 1985 rule for the Handgun roster board. If they hold that it applies to SBR's then they're going to say the same thing for MG's.

    It's an easy fix though. Just get the upper from the FFL after they receive it. Pin/Weld the barrel to 16"+, or replace the upper with a 16"+ barreled version. Then have the FFL (who the ATF believes is the current transferee) send a note to the NFA branch noting the barrel length change, and then begin the form 4 to yourself with the updated barrel length information.

    A few extra hoops, but still 100% legal.

    -Jim
     

    dwnthehatch

    10-32
    Nov 6, 2007
    2,571
    Kent Island
    You mean OAL I suspect. There are at least two ways around this. One is to put a >16" barrel on (either carbine barrel or pin one of those fake suppressors on.) Look at the pic below: 16-1/8" :innocent0

    Looks like this is the route I'm gonna take to sell my M11/9. Are you still allowed to swap on a Lage slowfire upper afterwards?
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    Are you still allowed to swap on a Lage slowfire upper afterwards?

    AFAIK, yes. SB281 specifically doesn't apply to machine guns. Its just that the MSP is now starting to enforce some NFA items have to be on the handgun roster.

    Shameless plug: My SWD M11/9 is now for sale in the MDS classifieds :)
     

    MACTHEGUN

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2014
    108
    Its just that the MSP is now starting to enforce some NFA items have to be on the handgun roster.QUOTE]


    Do you know this to be factual or are you speculating?


    I spoke to "Marlene" (hope I got that right) from the handgun board and she said she hadn't heard anything as to machine guns having to be included on the roster.

    She then referred me to the licensing division for an answer. The lady there also said she didn't think there was any change in policy pertaining to M/G's and asked me to hold and she would ask those in the know, within a minute she confirmed my suspicions that there is no change.

    She also remarked that the confusion lies with the BATFE.

    Now if we could just get someone at MSP to communicate all of this effectively to the above we should be good to go.

    BTW, we also briefly discussed stripped lowers and SRB's. She said she would look into this and that I could call her back for an answer and also that there are no stripped AR lowers on the roster (the Rock River receiver listed are 1911's).

    They were very nice and super helpful and obviously the problem is with the politicians as everyone else (so far IMHO) are just trying to do their job so I am encouraged
     

    bobthefisher

    Durka ninja
    Aug 18, 2010
    1,214
    Definitely not where you are!
    Receivers/frames need not be on the handgun roaster, as they are not handguns per MD law. So correct me if I'm wrong, to simply get around the HQL requirement, just buy the frame of the pistol and then build it yourself. However, you'll still have to fill out a 77R, but no spent shell casing is required.

    The roster board may say nay, but according to the idiotic MD law any firearm (i.e. not a receiver/frame) with a barrel less then 16 inches and manufactured 1985 - present, must be on the roster, as they're considered handguns needing approval. This could catch any MG manufactured within the years 1985 - May 19, 1986 (NFA registry closed for new machineguns). I could definitely see them putting in subsections on the roster for approved SBR, SBS, AOW, and MG's. Just say'n.

    ... and yes MD has gone full retard! We have quite literally, the most difficult and confusing gun laws on the planet.
     
    Last edited:

    bobthefisher

    Durka ninja
    Aug 18, 2010
    1,214
    Definitely not where you are!
    I don't see any reason that MSP would change the <16", after 1985 rule for the Handgun roster board. If they hold that it applies to SBR's then they're going to say the same thing for MG's.

    It's an easy fix though. Just get the upper from the FFL after they receive it. Pin/Weld the barrel to 16"+, or replace the upper with a 16"+ barreled version. Then have the FFL (who the ATF believes is the current transferee) send a note to the NFA branch noting the barrel length change, and then begin the form 4 to yourself with the updated barrel length information.

    A few extra hoops, but still 100% legal.

    -Jim

    Agreed! Way to use that brain bucket. :party29:
     

    MACTHEGUN

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2014
    108
    Receivers/frames need not be on the handgun roaster, as they are not handguns per MD law. So correct me if I'm wrong, to simply get around the HQL requirement, just buy the frame of the pistol and then build it yourself. However, you'll still have to fill out a 77R, but no spent shell casing is required.

    The roster board may say nay, but according to the idiotic MD law any firearm (i.e. not a receiver/frame) with a barrel less then 16 inches and manufactured 1985 - present, must be on the roster, as they're considered handguns needing approval. This could catch any MG manufactured within the years 1985 - May 19, 1986 (NFA registry closed for new machineguns). I could definitely see them putting in subsections on the roster for approved SBR, SBS, AOW, and MG's. Just say'n.

    ... and yes MD has gone full retard! We have quite literally, the most difficult and confusing gun laws on the planet.


    That's because we have over-zealous politicians that refuse to get the facts from subject matter experts before they pass a bill and I don't think that they are too concerned if the whole system gets bogged down.


    I have found the "Handgun" definition and obviously (to me at least) they were not taking M/G's into consideration when they wrote that as if that were the case, they would not have written the words "semi automatic" when they wrote SB281.

    One thing's for sure, they need to clean this up as it's a mess.

    There's NO WAY I would consider putting a 16"+ barrel on a MAC, that kinda defeats the purpose IMO and not lookin for another rifle.
     
    Last edited:

    MACTHEGUN

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2014
    108
    Aren't Caspian frames on the roster?


    Yes:


    Per the Handgun Roster:


    Manufacturer/Model Model Number Caliber


    Caspian Arms Ltd. Frames All All

    Caspian Arms Ltd. M1911 Style .45 ACP; .38 Super; .9mm



    Sorry, I haven't figured out how to adjust margins on this forum yet.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    There's NO WAY I would consider putting a 16"+ barrel on a MAC, that kinda defeats the purpose IMO and not lookin for another rifle.

    Since AF is banned I'll try to put it politely;) Please re-read these threads. You do NOT need to leave a 16" barrel on it. Only on long enough to get it transferred to you (and you wont even see it while its sitting at your FFL for ~9mo.) There is NO rule against possessing short machine guns. Possessing and transferring are two separate things.

    To make it even clearer:
    A) You can buy a M16 w/ an old 20" upper w/o handgun roster hassles. You can put ANY upper on it you want after it transfers to you. Even squat little pistol uppers as soon as you walk out your FFLs door w/ it in your hot little hands.
    OR
    B) You can buy a M16 w/ a <16" upper (like M4), that if you can't prove it was made before 1985, you will have to submit it to the MD handgun roster before it can be transferred to you by your FFL. It might even be denied incorrectly by the BATFE if under 29" OAL. Hopefully, your FFL can submit it to the roster board while you are waiting ~9mo. If not, it'll be a year plus before you ever see it.

    Which is easier? A or B?
     

    MACTHEGUN

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2014
    108
    Since AF is banned I'll try to put it politely;) Please re-read these threads. You do NOT need to leave a 16" barrel on it. Only on long enough to get it transferred to you (and you wont even see it while its sitting at your FFL for ~9mo.) There is NO rule against possessing short machine guns. Possessing and transferring are two separate things.

    To make it even clearer:
    A) You can buy a M16 w/ an old 20" upper w/o handgun roster hassles. You can put ANY upper on it you want after it transfers to you. Even squat little pistol uppers as soon as you walk out your FFLs door w/ it in your hot little hands.
    OR
    B) You can buy a M16 w/ a <16" upper (like M4), that if you can't prove it was made before 1985, you will have to submit it to the MD handgun roster before it can be transferred to you by your FFL. It might even be denied incorrectly by the BATFE if under 29" OAL. Hopefully, your FFL can submit it to the roster board while you are waiting ~9mo. If not, it'll be a year plus before you ever see it.

    Which is easier? A or B?


    Sure, I follow you and thanks for the feedback.

    I do understand in regard to the swapping of uppers and actually discussed this with the handgun board lady when referencing SBR's and she immediately cautioned me that to comply with the 29" OAL requirement to get an approval and then swapping to a shorter barrel later would subject me to confiscation and arrest and of course I also realize that an opinion over the phone does not replace the written word (law).

    My concern would be that if they wanted to start enforcing the law as you had mentioned, that they may apply the above view to MG's as well.

    If what you suggested would work w/o retribution I certainly would consider it.

    One thing's for sure, I have put quite a bit of effort into finding the facts but have come to the conclusion that they all contradict each other. I've seen the letter that Engage has sent and am encouraged by that but my eyes are becoming permanently crossed from reading all this material lol.

    I will take your advise though and re-read the thread (maybe my eyes will then start to un-cross).
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    ..discussed this with the handgun board lady when referencing SBR's and she immediately cautioned me that to comply with the 29" OAL requirement
    Thats a SBR. SB281 applies to semi-automatics. Short (or long) MGs are neither SBRs nor semi-automatic.
     

    smokeybear

    Member
    Aug 10, 2014
    9
    Updates?

    Any more updates on this topic? I'm curious if any one else has had approvals or denials on any MG issues like the above.
     

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