Am I late to the NFA party?

IMBLITZVT said:

IMHO, I would not suggest a M60. Its a good gun and fun to shoot but limits you to 308. I have never see any conversion for these guns. 308 is not cheap! A 1919a4 can be set up in any caliber. Assault Rifle calibers are still cheap as are 9mm and 45ACP guns. M60s are cool if you want a piece that you rarely shoot. However they are not the guns normally out on the line shooting.

Getting a MG is like having a baby in the sense that its never a good time. Most of us don't have that kind of cash sitting around. You just have to decided its time and to it. Grow a pair and tell the wife. Offer up something for sale if you must. I hear all the time "I dont sell...etc". What that means is that have collection full of things you are bored with or have upgraded and don't have the things you really want and would most enjoy now. Imagine if you never sold a car... how many would you have sitting around junking things up. However thats another story. However its never good to be set in our ways. Go around and find a bunch of guns you know you can live without and sell them! The cash for the MG will be there quicker than you think.

I see it all the time, people want to get in the NFA in the shallow end with a SBR first. Then they spend a bunch of money in the NFA all building to a MG. Be smart, jump in the deep end first, its a lot more fun! There is not any sense in owning 2-5 AR15 SBRs after you buy a M16... Consider it an investment in not buying guns you will not use later. Go straight for a M16 now!

Its also not true that they are not investments. When people get old, they certainly sell off MGs to help fund their retirement or a college education for the kids. I see it all the time. You will not find anything besides Gold so easy to sell at 10% under market rate. That said, unlike many investments you can have a lot of fun with it while you have it! Thats worth something too.

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The reference to the M60 was solely in regards to 3 of them that are for sale by A1Uniform. That is the thread where we discussed the investment aspect of the matter. I have no desire to buy an M60.

We will have to agree to disagree on machine guns, or even guns, being an investment. There are just way too many downsides to the entire investment aspect of that. If I really thought they were a solid investment, I would have my money in them versus the stock market right now because the market scares the heck out of me. Granted, not quite as much as tying up $500k in machine guns. Also, a lot less heart breaking to sell a mutual fund versus a machine gun, unless of course you are in the business of buying and selling all the time to make a profit.

The plan with the SBR would be for home defense. Essentially, make it a little easier to utilize within the confines of the house. Since I do not live alone, a machine gun in any form is pretty much not an option for what I want to use the SBR for.

This isn't about where I am jumping into NFA items at, but what I have thought through as a reasonable want/need. Should probably get a SBS too not that I think about it. Maybe a Benelli M4 with a 14" barrel.

Careful using NFA items for home defense. If you're in the wrong (even slightly), the penalties are far far worse!

bobthefisher said:

Careful using NFA items for home defense. If you're in the wrong (even slightly), the penalties are far far worse!

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Bob, Could you site the statute for the penalty's for using a machine gun or other nfa weapons please.

bobthefisher said:

Careful using NFA items for home defense. If you're in the wrong (even slightly), the penalties are far far worse!

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Yeah, being in the wrong isn't a "slight" thing when we are talking about home defense. Either I am being charged with murder, or I am not. Doesn't get any more significant than that. Now, there could be other lesser charges, like the felon that was in possession of a firearm when he legally defended himself and his family from a home invasion.

This is kind of like worrying about being charged with an additional crime for using copper solid bullets in the commission of a crime, which carries an additional 5 years, after being charged with murder. The 5 year add on would be the least of my worries.

Heres the current case regarding 922(o)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245098266/4-Summons-to-Holder-B-Todd

Firm: http://www.sdslaw.us/

Go Fund Me: http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

fabsroman said:

Alright, let me address my position on the machine gun issue. Personally, I find absolutely nothing fun about shooting anything full auto. ....My entire reason for buying a machine gun would be a SHTF scenario, not a "let's go out and blow through thousands of rounds to have fun" scenario. It certainly wouldn't be an investment scenario either. How liquid is a machine gun? How long does it take to find a buyer for one? Then again, I guess a buyer could be found pretty quickly at the "right" price.

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Well I guess I can forgive that as I do enjoy your posts. Every once and a while we run into someone who does not like it. Sounds like you get bored with stationary targets. I get that. There are IDPA style shoots for MGs but not really many around here. We may get to it at some point but not for now. I would skip the MG for the SHTF scenario. Just not worth the investment in money. I certainly don't want another MG wrapped up in an investment. Just less supply for my demand. MGs are almost as good as cash. Ever read the overnight funding ads out there for them? I am a buyer today for a gun at the right price. Also that right price usually does not have to be to much below market rate and if you have had the MG for a few years, you are still probably in profit. However I agree, if you don't enjoy them skip the idea.

fabsroman said:

...
We will have to agree to disagree on machine guns, or even guns, being an investment. There are just way too many downsides to the entire investment aspect of that. If I really thought they were a solid investment, I would have my money in them versus the stock market right now because the market scares the heck out of me. Granted, not quite as much as tying up $500k in machine guns. ....

The plan with the SBR would be for home defense. Essentially, make it a little easier to utilize within the confines of the house. Since I do not live alone, a machine gun in any form is pretty much not an option for what I want to use the SBR for.

This isn't about where I am jumping into NFA items at, but what I have thought through as a reasonable want/need. Should probably get a SBS too not that I think about it. Maybe a Benelli M4 with a 14" barrel.

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I think MGs and guns in general are like anything else. Don't have all your eggs in one basket. The stock market is crazy scary. The whole economy is scary. At least with MGs, if the market crashes, you still have fun guns... but they are not so fun for you so never mind. However where is the heartbreak if you don't enjoy them anyway?

I see no reason for a SBR for home defense if you have kids. Over penetration. I would look at Pistol caliber firearms or maybe shotguns. Yeah maybe a SBS but there are other options that keep you out of the NFA there. Frankly the few extra inches in the extremely rare case you need it means little. So I would just skip the whole deal. Is the 4"s on the end of the shotgun worth the hundreds extra it will cost you along with having a shotgun that will be much harder to sell if you needed too? Just get one of these and skip the SBR: http://www.serbu.com/supershorty.html

coopermania said:

Bob, Could you site the statute for the penalty's for using a machine gun or other nfa weapons please.

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CRIMINAL LAW
TITLE 4. WEAPON CRIMES
SUBTITLE 4. UNIFORM MACHINE GUN ACT

Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. § 4-404 (2014)

§ 4-404. Use of machine gun in crime of violence


(a) Prohibited. -- A person may not use or possess a machine gun in the commission or attempted commission of a crime of violence.

(b) Penalty. -- A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 20 years.

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And

CRIMINAL LAW
TITLE 4. WEAPON CRIMES
SUBTITLE 4. UNIFORM MACHINE GUN ACT

Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. § 4-405 (2014)

§ 4-405. Use of machine gun for aggressive purpose


(a) Presumption of offensive or aggressive purpose. -- Possession or use of a machine gun is presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose when:

(1) the machine gun:

(i) is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun is found;

(ii) is in the possession of, or used by, an unnaturalized foreign-born person or a person who has been convicted of a crime of violence in any state or federal court of the United States; or

(iii) is not registered as required under § 4-403 of this subtitle; or

(2) empty or loaded shells that have been used or are susceptible of being used in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity of the machine gun.

(b) Prohibited. -- A person may not possess or use a machine gun for an offensive or aggressive purpose.

(c) Penalty. -- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 10 years.

(d) Statute of limitations and in banc review. -- A person who violates this section is subject to § 5-106(b) of the Courts Article.

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IMBLITZVT said:

Well I guess I can forgive that as I do enjoy your posts. Every once and a while we run into someone who does not like it. Sounds like you get bored with stationary targets. I get that. There are IDPA style shoots for MGs but not really many around here. We may get to it at some point but not for now. I would skip the MG for the SHTF scenario. Just not worth the investment in money. I certainly don't want another MG wrapped up in an investment. Just less supply for my demand. MGs are almost as good as cash. Ever read the overnight funding ads out there for them? I am a buyer today for a gun at the right price. Also that right price usually does not have to be to much below market rate and if you have had the MG for a few years, you are still probably in profit. However I agree, if you don't enjoy them skip the idea.



I think MGs and guns in general are like anything else. Don't have all your eggs in one basket. The stock market is crazy scary. The whole economy is scary. At least with MGs, if the market crashes, you still have fun guns... but they are not so fun for you so never mind. However where is the heartbreak if you don't enjoy them anyway?

I see no reason for a SBR for home defense if you have kids. Over penetration. I would look at Pistol caliber firearms or maybe shotguns. Yeah maybe a SBS but there are other options that keep you out of the NFA there. Frankly the few extra inches in the extremely rare case you need it means little. So I would just skip the whole deal. Is the 4"s on the end of the shotgun worth the hundreds extra it will cost you along with having a shotgun that will be much harder to sell if you needed too? Just get one of these and skip the SBR: http://www.serbu.com/supershorty.html





And

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I shot a .357 revolver and my brother's .50 Desert Eagle. I have no desire to shoot either of them again. Likewise, I have no desire to shoot a 12 gauge pistol. No thank you.

As far as the SBR for home defense, everything I have read suggests that the shotgun and rifle are way more lethal than a handgun. Not only that, but how many sheets of drywall does it take to stop a handgun round? I am guessing way more than 2, 3, or 4 that would be between my kids' bedrooms and my bedroom, assuming that I would be starting from my bedroom in the first place.

The $200 for the tax stamp is almost irrelevant. Not totally, but almost.

clandestine said:

Heres the current case regarding 922(o)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245098266/4-Summons-to-Holder-B-Todd

Firm: http://www.sdslaw.us/

Go Fund Me: http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

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Well if that wasn't a bitchslap, then I don't know what is. Thanks for posting this.

clandestine said:

Heres the current case regarding 922(o)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint

https://www.scribd.com/doc/245098266/4-Summons-to-Holder-B-Todd

Firm: http://www.sdslaw.us/

Go Fund Me: http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk

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We can hope beyond hope that one of these cases gets a cert by SCOTUS, but I doubt they'll even leave the Circuit courts.

IMHO this is not viewed by the courts as a serious issue, so again a good split amongst District and Circuit courts would be required before SCOTUS would even think about touching NFA laws again, especially after Miller.

fabsroman said:

I shot a .357 revolver and my brother's .50 Desert Eagle. I have no desire to shoot either of them again. Likewise, I have no desire to shoot a 12 gauge pistol. No thank you.

As far as the SBR for home defense, everything I have read suggests that the shotgun and rifle are way more lethal than a handgun. Not only that, but how many sheets of drywall does it take to stop a handgun round? I am guessing way more than 2, 3, or 4 that would be between my kids' bedrooms and my bedroom, assuming that I would be starting from my bedroom in the first place.

The $200 for the tax stamp is almost irrelevant. Not totally, but almost.

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Not to be rude but what do you like to shoot? Sounds like a very narrow window? You don't like recoil or what?

Its not about liking a 12 Gauge pistol. Look you are not going to likely like any Home defense type gun from what you have been saying. So it really does not matter if you like it. However why all the work to get into the NFA when you are never going to shoot it anyway? How about something like this MossbergShotgun:

Frankly anything larger than a BB gun is going through 4 layers of drywall. Handgun rounds are not as powerful and you can get serious HP what will open up quick. You are not going to find that in a SBR I don't think, Assuming 223. 12 gauge really does pack a big bunch... I think if you do some testing you will find the difference is not shooting your kids but the kids next door or down the street. If they are a room away, they are just to close for almost anything. So don't aim that way!

Sounds to me you are looking to combine two things in one purchase. You want into the NFA and want a HD gun. However if its just HD, I see no reason to get into the NFA. As you get into SBRs and SBS, they are going to kick harder and harder and get louder and louder. It just does not seem like a great value to get into the NFA just to cut 4"s off a barrel and you will still have a gun you will never shoot... from what it sounds... tell us a little more about what you do enjoy shooting and maybe we can help more.

IMBLITZVT said:

Not to be rude but what do you like to shoot? Sounds like a very narrow window? You don't like recoil or what?

Its not about liking a 12 Gauge pistol. Look you are not going to likely like any Home defense type gun from what you have been saying. So it really does not matter if you like it. However why all the work to get into the NFA when you are never going to shoot it anyway? How about something like this MossbergShotgun:

Frankly anything larger than a BB gun is going through 4 layers of drywall. Handgun rounds are not as powerful and you can get serious HP what will open up quick. You are not going to find that in a SBR I don't think, Assuming 223. 12 gauge really does pack a big bunch... I think if you do some testing you will find the difference is not shooting your kids but the kids next door or down the street. If they are a room away, they are just to close for almost anything. So don't aim that way!

Sounds to me you are looking to combine two things in one purchase. You want into the NFA and want a HD gun. However if its just HD, I see no reason to get into the NFA. As you get into SBRs and SBS, they are going to kick harder and harder and get louder and louder. It just does not seem like a great value to get into the NFA just to cut 4"s off a barrel and you will still have a gun you will never shoot... from what it sounds... tell us a little more about what you do enjoy shooting and maybe we can help more.

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How much work is it really to get an NFA item. I draft up my NFA trust. Order a lower with the trust name and location engraved on it. Fill out a Form 1. Spend $200 for a tax stamp, maybe $400 for two of them. Wait a month or two. Build the rifle. Plus, my two brothers and a brother in-law want a couple or ten NFA items like SBRs, machine guns, and suppressors. Figured I would work myself through the process and then work them through the process.

Now, as far as what I "like" to shoot, that would mostly be shotguns. I like shooting clays (i.e., moving targets) and wingshooting. I also like long range shooting with rifles. Ultimately, I try to relate all my target shooting toward hunting, which I used to do a lot of. Much higher chance that I will be out hunting during the year than defending myself and family. Granted, the stakes are much higher in a self defense scenario, but I am also of the opinion that shooting a gun at paper just isn't the same situation as a self defense situation. Pretty simple to put bullets on paper when there is no pressure. Completely different thing when there is a ton of pressure.

At 5' 8" and 160 lbs., I do not like recoil. I use a 3 1/2" 12 gauge Benelli SBE for most of my waterfowl hunting and there were days I would wake up with a sore back the day after hunting. Put a mercury recoil reducer in the stock and fixed that problem. My Ruger M77MKII in .300 Wing Mag beat the crap out of me until I put a new stock with a full length bedding block on it and a Harris bi-pod. The added weight tamed the recoil from that rifle. When I shoot clays, I shoot most of them with the lightest 1 1/8 oz. load possible at 1,090 fps. Meanwhile, a lot of guys are shooting stuff going 1,300 fps. Yep, I am recoil adverse but it allows me to shoot longer and enjoy shooting.

As far as one of those "small" handheld shotguns is concerned, my brothers saw one at our FFL when we were there to pick up some items last summer. They both commented to me, "Who the hell would want to shoot that thing?" One of them is 6' 1" and 240 pounds of muscle and the other is 6' and 200 pounds. As already mentioned, one of them has the .50 Desert Eagle and actually enjoys shooting that thing. Pull the trigger on that "little" shotgun with a slug or buckshot load in the chamber would be good for all of a single shot from me. The gun would probably go flying out of my hands or have broken my wrist. On top of that, how the heck does one aim that sort of thing accurately?

I'll send you a PM with what I currently own so you can see if there is anything that I am missing.

If you like shotguns. There is always the m4 entry SBS , nuff said. Maybe another stamp for a silencerco suppressor for it.

SCARCQB said:

If you like shotguns. There is always the m4 entry SBS , nuff said. Maybe another stamp for a silencerco suppressor for it.

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Yep, that is on the short list. Debating between that and a 28 gauge Beretta A400 Action for the Christmas tree. I'd probably shoot the 28 gauge a lot more for skeet though, but if I ever needed the M4 for self defense it would be worth its weight in gold.

Get the standard M4 shotgun, form 1 it for an SBS, then buy the entry barrel assemby( around 650.00) for when the stamp shows up. Then..... Be happy.

An m2 sbs is also nice.

I have done away with NFA stuff for HD. The current SHTF guns are the Tavor, PS90, Benelli m4 and Glocks. The bullpups are superior to the SBRs for HD application. I used to rely on 10" AR... But the muzzle blast and loss of velocity is somewhat of a concern.( vision and hearing impaired is not ideal) The bullpups resolved that issue. they have full lenght barrels, SBR short without the paperwork plus you wont get into that" dont use an NFA item for HD" thing.

The rest( except for a coltb6920) are safe queens.

SCARCQB said:

Get the standard M4 shotgun, form 1 it for an SBS, then buy the entry barrel assemby( around 650.00) for when the stamp shows up. Then..... Be happy.

An m2 sbs is also nice.

I have done away with NFA stuff for HD. The current SHTF guns are the Tavor, PS90, Benelli m4 and Glocks. The bullpups are superior to the SBRs for HD application. I used to rely on 10" AR... But the muzzle blast and loss of velocity is somewhat of a concern.( vision and hearing impaired is not ideal) The bullpups resolved that issue. they have full lenght barrels, SBR short without the paperwork plus you wont get into that" dont use an NFA item for HD" thing.

The rest( except for a coltb6920) are safe queens.

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I am a happy malcontent. lol Back in the 90's, I was in the process of upgrading some stuff on my computer, and a buddy of mine said, "Fabs, can't you just leave anything alone? Nothing can remain "stock" with you." I had just done some modifications on my Mustang and a couple guns. I am always tinkering and wondering, what if.........

I cannot wrap my head around the PS90 for some reason, but had been debating the Tavor. Are they still legal? Thought I read on their website that they are less than 29", which in my opinion makes them a copycat nowadays. Am I wrong about that? If I am wrong, I'll buy one.

Yeah, I am getting the Benelli M4 at some point in the future. Don't know if it will be for Christmas or in 2015. Also seen the shorter barrel for same here and there on gunbroker.

You can get a MD compliant tavor.longer compensator attached... At 29" OAL, its still shorter than most SBRs

fabsroman said:

Has there been a SCOTUS case regarding the Constitutionality of the Hughes Amendment? if not, that would be the quickest way to have it overturned. Handguns were banned in DC for 30+ years, and then along came Heller. If SCOTUS has already ruled on the Constitutionality of banning the purchase of machine guns built after 1986, then so be it.

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A case is brewing in TX Northern District. Nothing from SCOTUS since Miller regarding SBS's.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=162139

fabsroman said:

How much work is it really to get an NFA item. I draft up my NFA trust. Order a lower with the trust name and location engraved on it. Fill out a Form 1. Spend $200 for a tax stamp, maybe $400 for two of them. Wait a month or two. Build the rifle....

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Sorry it took so long to reply and I got your PM. NFA is fair amount more PITA for a SBR compared to a rifle that might have a few more inches of barrel. Also its a lot harder gun to resell without loss. After all do you want a gun with your name on the side out there? And for what gain? A little easier to get around corners? Increased Muzzle blast? Unless you are going to suppress where adding a few extra inches really starts to become a big deal. IHMO, its just not really the way to go. SBR AR15 would just not be the first thing I would advise. It does not sound like you are going to like a SBR AR15 anyway.

As far as Shotgun, sounds like you should know much better than I! Yeah that shorty shotgun is going to suck to shoot but if you are only going to use in HD role, who cares? If using in HD... the adrenaline is going to take care of the recoil and you can't get much easier to get around corners. So if you are not going to shoot it anyway... what advantage goes a 14" Shotgun have? You are not going to like to shoot a 14", 12 gauge any more than that...

I am 6'1" about the size of your friend. Recoil is not an issue for me. I can handle a M14 in FA. That said, I find SBRs/SBSs overrated. Judging by what you like, I doubt you will like to shoot anything in that category. So getting in the NFA in this case is just unnecessary.

Sounds like you hate shooting paper... me too! THere are other things to shoot out there that make it a lot more fun. I am not really a hunter, so we have very different taste in firearms. I own two bolt guns, a K98 and M44 and they cost me $265 total. I own no "hunting round" rifles. That is non military caliber/origin rifles. I own two shotguns, one of which is junk. The other is my Grandfathers Remington 1100. That gets any shotgun job done for me. So after hearing what you are saying, I would say go shoot before you buy as I doubt you are going to enjoy shooting whatever it is. If I was you, I would probably just look for a Folding stock and 18" barrel to stick on one of your shotguns when you are not hunting with it... and skip the time and effort and money in a gun you will likely not like anyway. That said, if you ever want to try out some MGs... let me know and we can work it out.

I see a lot of money getting dropped on SBR AR15s... and for relatively little benefit IMHO. I think they are poor investments too as I don't see you getting your money back out of a gun like that. Yeah they are cool every once and a while. However 223 out of a Short barrel is not really that fun to be around often....IMHO. At least when I stand next to someone shooting a 50BMG, I can appreciate the awesome power being unleashed. A 223 SBR poodle shooter is just as annoying to stand next to as that little annoying dog its only just powerful enough to kill.

SCARCQB said:

You can get a MD compliant tavor.longer compensator attached... At 29" OAL, its still shorter than most SBRs

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Huh?

A 10.5" barrel AR is about 29.3" long. 29" is 29"

AFAIK, the change to trusts will require that trustees be fingerprinted and background checked.

Not doing away them totally.