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  • Kevp

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2008
    1,874
    Or, maybe, to defend yourself w/o your errant #00 flying through your neighbor's house while giving yourself a better chance to successfully accomplish your hd mission w/o f'ing yourself up?

    Use a tighter choke and learn how to shoot. That is a ridiculous response - you are basically saying you can't effectively defend yourself with anything but an NFA firearm? I used a shotgun as an example, but the jist of my post is don't use a NFA firearm. "....accomplish your mission"- give me a break. :rolleyes:
     

    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    Shot expands at 1" per yard from the muzzle, correct?

    I believe that if any of us was to use any firearm to defend our life, the lawyers we need to worry about aren't the prosecutors, it is the lawyers of the person shot or their family members.
     

    Kevp

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2008
    1,874
    I believe that if any of us was to use any firearm to defend our life, the lawyers we need to worry about aren't the prosecutors, it is the lawyers of the person shot or their family members.


    That is absolutely correct and you don't want to give them anything to work with.
     

    randyho

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 21, 2009
    1,544
    Not His Happy Place
    you are basically saying you can't effectively defend yourself with anything but an NFA firearm?

    I'm claiming no such thing. I'm claiming the nfa gun gives me a better chance of doing the hd thing w/o collateral damage to me and stuff around me. You disagree with that?

    Meanwhile, lighten up. :party29:
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,447
    MD
    Shot expands at 1" per yard from the muzzle, correct?

    Not if you use good shot. Federal tac with the flight control wad produces a shoftball sized hole at about about 12 yards. Also, I'm far less concerned about one piece of buckshot leaving my house than I would be a miss from a rifle caliber carbine.

    I think Kevp makes a very valid point about having your weapon taken as evidence afterward. If I had my choice between a standard M-4 pattern or an SBR, they will both do the job. However, I'd rather have my much more common M-4 sitting in the evidence room than my more expensive SBR.
     

    randyho

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 21, 2009
    1,544
    Not His Happy Place
    I think Kevp makes a very valid point about having your weapon taken as evidence afterward. If I had my choice between a standard M-4 pattern or an SBR, they will both do the job. However, I'd rather have my much more common M-4 sitting in the evidence room than my more expensive SBR.
    It is an excellent point. But, given the context of a hd situation, what happens after the fact, is a lesser priority. No?
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,447
    MD
    It is an excellent point. But, given the context of a hd situation, what happens after the fact, is a lesser priority. No?

    True indeed. I suppose it's a matter of your pre-planning. I don't keep my duty weapon as my nightstand gun because of the extra headaches after it's use. Knowing they exist, I plan ahead. Now, if it's the only gun I could get to than by all means go for it but I have options so I excercise them.
     

    Kevp

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2008
    1,874
    I'm claiming no such thing. I'm claiming the nfa gun gives me a better chance of doing the hd thing w/o collateral damage to me and stuff around me. You disagree with that?

    Meanwhile, lighten up. :party29:

    Randy,

    There are a lot of guys that come to this board looking to be steered in the right direction. Recommending a NFA firearm for home defense is not steering them in the right direction- it is setting them up for trouble. An "NFA gun" (which is a pretty broad category) does not necessarily give you advantages in either HD or collateral damage. I don't disagree on penetration issues (I have seen documentation of .45 ACP achieving greater penetration than 5.56 in typical construction materials which is counter-intuitive to the casual observer), just on the use of any NFA firearm for home defense.

    You argue what weapon/ammunition combination is best for HD until the cows come home. A shotgun with bird shot is considered a pretty good choice when it comes to those criteria and can be devastating in close quarters. A handgun/light combo with good expanding ammunition in the hands of a competent shooter is just fine as well.

    Look, no one should want to get into a terminal confrontation in their home. Everyone loses. You should definitely be prepared, but you need to apply common sense to the equation. The two suggestions above would fit within the definition of what a reasonable person, not looking for trouble, would have handy for HD. You roll the dice when it comes to the court system. There are many variables that could come into play such as:

    - where you live and the overall political atmosphere relative to firearms and the defensive use of them
    - the personalities and agendas of lawyers on both sides
    - the outcome of the shooting
    - the agenda and aggressiveness of the family of the person shot
    - the criminal record(s) or lack thereof of both the criminal and the defender
    - press coverage of the case
    - racial issues
    .....and so on.

    There is a lot of information available regarding this issue. Here is a link to an attorney in PA that does workshops if you don't want to take my word for it.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/nfa-class-3-...w-using-nfa-firearms-self-defense-page-2.html

    The bottom line for me is this- when you fill out a Form 4 or Form 1 for an NFA item, you enter the intended purpose of the NFA item. That usually ends up being something like enhance my firearm collection or for investment purposes. Try submitting one with for home defense as the reason. This is just common sense and all the rationales I've seen thus far do not pass the common sense test.
     

    randyho

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 21, 2009
    1,544
    Not His Happy Place
    Thanks for the reasonable response. Good stuff. And I'll look it over. The OP was asking about krinks, not nfa. In that context, I opined on the ergonomic and physiological. You went legal. Still imo, nothing idiotic in any of it.

    No autopsy, no foul, eh? :thumbsup:
     

    Kevp

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2008
    1,874
    Thanks for the reasonable response. Good stuff. And I'll look it over. The OP was asking about krinks, not nfa. In that context, I opined on the ergonomic and physiological. You went legal. Still imo, nothing idiotic in any of it.

    No autopsy, no foul, eh? :thumbsup:

    Roger. When you talk Krinkov, you are talking NFA as far as I am concerned. I know that Arsenal makes a 16" version with the goofy looking long barrel, but that is pretty much meant to be an easy cut and thread SBR. Anyway, those of us with the experience need to keep the new guys straight. Uninformed action can lead to unintended consequences for the entire community. It's all good. :thumbsup:
     

    SCARCQB

    Get Opp my rawn, Plick!
    Jun 25, 2008
    13,614
    Undisclosed location
    I will chime in SCAR- I don't think it is wise to use a NFA weapon for home defense. First, your investment or collectible (that is what you are saying on the Form 1 or 4) will end up in an evidence locker if you do use it. Second, you open yourself up to lots of legal implications. Some will argue the latter, but why even take the chance? To be cool? A Mossberg 500 in the evidence locker is no big deal, but a $2,000 Krink SBR hurts and who knows how much more you might pay in legal fees trying to get it out or you out of trouble....and you might not be successful. There are lots of scumbag attorneys out there that would jump all over your SBRed PS90 with a 50 rd mag. They would make you out to be a nut in the press and the courtroom.

    Remember the dude that set-up the ambush at his business in Baltimore a couple years ago? I know him. He didn't go to jail, but his life was turned upside down and he still hasn't recovered. I almost answered that shed break-in thread a couple weeks ago when someone talked about staking the place out. There are lots of suggestions on this board that are very unwise....but what do I know? The $hithouse lawyers (none of whom have a law degree or have passed the BAR) may now commence.

    Kevp.... I agree with you 100% with this one. NFA firearms are a liability when it boils down to legal matters. SBRs and Suppressors aside. I will still choose a well broken in AR or a PS90 as a primary weapon for HD. I have recently switched to the PS90 due to its low recoil, flash and noise. My 13 year old daughter can handle it very well and can put multiple shots in a tight pattern without breaking a sweat. It is also very easy on the ears. With its 16" barrel, the 5.7 round may outperform the 5.56 that is fired from an SBR. No research to back that up, just an old chronograph and wet phonebooks. And BTW, don't go cheap on your HD ammo.
     

    SCARCQB

    Get Opp my rawn, Plick!
    Jun 25, 2008
    13,614
    Undisclosed location
    Have any of you guys ever fired an unsuppressed, short barreled, rifle-caliber firearm in a closed room or hallway without ear protection?

    You're going to get permanent hearing damage with the first round. Maybe even a ruptured ear drum...


    I have....

    and I will never do that again. This is why I switched to he 5.7 round. AR57 or PS90 SBRs are not as disorienting as 5.56, 7.62 or 5.45 SBRs when fired in confined spaces. Legal issues aside, strictly talking about performance, safety , adequacy , size... ect. the PS90 in SBR configuration serving as a PDW for HD is hard to top.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5oU_vK8zY&feature=related
     
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