Confirmed: HQL Needed to Take Possession of Handgun After September 30

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  • Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    The state really is NOT the one causing the problem here. The state has already given dealers the green light to release. The problem is entirely between the dealer and the buyer at this point. If the dealer refuses to release until the ND comes back post October, I think there is some pretty good grounds for a lawsuit against the dealer for the costs to obtain the HQL. Thing is, there must be ambiguity between the dealer and the buyer as to when the gun would be released. If the buyer knew going into it that the gun would NOT be released until an ND came along, then that is the buyer's fault. Lots of people knew about this back in May. I knew about this back then and was talking to my FFL about it before the lawsuit was even close to being settled. Some dealers were releasing prior to the ND back then. My stipulation to him when I picked up my first gun from him was that the rest of the handguns be transferred to me before October 1, 2013. He could take all the time he wanted in getting them to me as long as they came before October 1, 2013. Needless to say, I have all of them and he has been great to deal with. I have referred my brother in-law, sister, and brother to him and will probably send a couple more his way before October 1, 2013.

    Really tough to blame the state when the dealers can release but refuse to do so of their own accord. Now, come October 1, 2013 when a HQL is needed, there might be an issue if people cannot obtain the HQL on or extremely close to October 1, 2013. At that point, it becomes entirely the state's fault and no longer the dealers.

    So, those of you at a dealer not releasing until a ND comes back, look at your contract and see if there is a way to get out of it and/or if it stipulates that the firearm will NOT be released prior to a ND coming back. I have been harping about this for a month now, but everybody thinks I am trying to beat up on the dealers. Can only imagine the backlash the Bass Pro Shop is going to receive from this with 1,000+ handguns in the backroom and them still selling without telling people they will most likely need a HQL to pick up the handgun by the time the ND comes back. That one could very well be a class action lawsuit.

    Well.... they are preventing the dealers from doing an NICS check now aren't they what purpose does that serve--- can't be public safety now can it... and we don't know for sure that hints of payback were not droped about...

    So I think the MSP statement was laywer speak for "we can't stop you, but we wish we could so --- maybe you should think it over real careful like... just in case we get even more power from the MGA next session.

    See I learned 'law' from Al Capone :)
     

    aireyc

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 14, 2013
    1,166
    Question for the lawyers:

    We can't sue until October 1 since the law hasn't taken effect even though we know the contents of the law. What if you buy a gun on September 30th from an 8-day release dealer, knowing that you will be blocked from picking up your guns? Are we expected to follow future law that hasn't taken effect?
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Question for the lawyers:

    We can't sue until October 1 since the law hasn't taken effect even though we know the contents of the law. What if you buy a gun on September 30th from an 8-day release dealer, knowing that you will be blocked from picking up your guns? Are we expected to follow future law that hasn't taken effect?

    The answer is the dealer is expected to follow the law on the day you go to pick up the gun. If you go to pick it up after October 1, 2013, the new law will be n effect. So, you will need the HQL at that point. If they really wanted to, they could have made this law effective the day after O'Malley signed it and a lot more of us, me included, would have been screwed. Of course, MSP would have had to work 48 hours a day just to try to figure out what it needed to put in place for this entire mess.

    Simply put, the cutoff for an 8 day releasing dealer is going to be September 21. If you do not have the Form 77r completed and faxed to MSP by September 21, 2013, be prepared to get a HQL for your new handgun.

    Think we are already passed the cutoff for a ND releasing dealer, and by a long ways.
     

    aireyc

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 14, 2013
    1,166
    The answer is the dealer is expected to follow the law on the day you go to pick up the gun. If you go to pick it up after October 1, 2013, the new law will be n effect. So, you will need the HQL at that point. If they really wanted to, they could have made this law effective the day after O'Malley signed it and a lot more of us, me included, would have been screwed. Of course, MSP would have had to work 48 hours a day just to try to figure out what it needed to put in place for this entire mess.

    Simply put, the cutoff for an 8 day releasing dealer is going to be September 21. If you do not have the Form 77r completed and faxed to MSP by September 21, 2013, be prepared to get a HQL for your new handgun.

    Think we are already passed the cutoff for a ND releasing dealer, and by a long ways.

    But as far as a lawsuit is concerned, you noted that you can't blame the state since it's really the dealer holding things up. So let's say you hire a builder to work on your house and you sign a contract to complete the work, but during construction the state decides to pass a law, effective immediately, that makes some part of the construction method illegal. The house is half built, and you can't complete construction because doing so would be against the law. Are you saying the state can effectively void any contractual obligation just by passing a law?

    Specifically to my initial question, I don't see how a person can enter into a contract to buy a gun, where the completion of the contract is affected by a law that has yet to take effect, yet said person has no grounds to sue since they aren't yet affected. I totally understand that once the law takes effect, you're required to follow it, but I'm curious as to how such a law could be legal in the first place given the lack of rights of would-be plaintiff when the contract is signed.
     

    rem87062597

    Annapolis, MD
    Jul 13, 2012
    641
    My letter to Gander Mountain.

    Hello,

    I'm writing in regard to the pending laws in Maryland regarding changes to the handgun background check process. As you may know, the background check process (from the time the paperwork is filled out until the time the buyer can pick up the handgun) is taking well 100 days due to the Maryland State Police's slowness. As of October 1st, 2013, as clarified by the Attorney General opinion that I'll link to right after this sentence, any individual picking up a gun that they have already purchased after October 1st must have a Handgun Qualification License.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/158788674/AG-opinion

    Therefore, anyone who has bought a handgun from your store since approximately May would need to acquire this license before picking up the property that they have already purchased from you. This license requires at least four hours of training, fingerprinting, a $50 fee to the state, and having to have the application processed by the Maryland State Police (along with the inherent wait times with that organization). Here is the law's text.

    http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2013RS/bills/sb/sb0281e.pdf

    You are facing a customer service nightmare. It is now more important than ever to consider allowing the 8th day release of any handgun purchase. Legally both the state of Maryland and the federal government will allow you to release a handgun if the state hasn't disapproved the application within 7 days after them receiving the application to purchase. Many other Maryland firearms dealers are doing this without issue.

    Refusing to help your customers, especially now that you hold no legal liability and the cost to the customers is even higher than it was before, would be a bad PR move that would alienate the very people that you depend on to pay your bills. This isn't like before; it's not just about getting our property quickly. Now the stakes are high, and customers are going to be upset at your company come October 1st when they aren't allowed to pick up their handgun, especially when Gander Mountain could have avoided this scenario very easily. As a company that likes to keep its customers happy, please do the right thing.

    Thank you,
    Josh
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    But as far as a lawsuit is concerned, you noted that you can't blame the state since it's really the dealer holding things up. So let's say you hire a builder to work on your house and you sign a contract to complete the work, but during construction the state decides to pass a law, effective immediately, that makes some part of the construction method illegal. The house is half built, and you can't complete construction because doing so would be against the law. Are you saying the state can effectively void any contractual obligation just by passing a law?

    Specifically to my initial question, I don't see how a person can enter into a contract to buy a gun, where the completion of the contract is affected by a law that has yet to take effect, yet said person has no grounds to sue since they aren't yet affected. I totally understand that once the law takes effect, you're required to follow it, but I'm curious as to how such a law could be legal in the first place given the lack of rights of would-be plaintiff when the contract is signed.

    The housing issue is a poor example because you probably had a permit approved before the new law went into effect. It is also a poor example because you make the new law take effect immediately without any exceptions.

    Before law changes go into effect, they usually allow a decent amount of time to pass. That is the case with this one. There is over 5 months to get things wrapped up before the law takes effect. At some point, a law goes into effect and that is the way it goes. They also usually provide grandfather provisions within them so that people will be protected before they go into effect.

    As far as people entering into contracts that can no longer be completed because they become illegal, such is life. Probably had plenty of that happen when marijuana, cocaine, etc. was made illegal back in the day. Heck, a Court can declare a contract null and void as against public policy even when there is not specific statute against it.

    Since the law can always be repealed before it goes into effect and/or stalled (e.g., Obamacare) though I doubt this one will be before it takes effect, a person needs to be actually harmed before they have standing to file a lawsuit.
     
    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    I can only imagine the clusterfark at places like Continental Arms that have hundreds of guns waiting to get delivered. A lot of first time people are going to be mighty unhappy they will have to spend even more money to take their gun home.

    Even more so once they find out they've been set back probably another whole year.

    I'd love for this to be the impetus for any dealers still not releasing on time to get their stock cleared.

    Don't count on it.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    So will MSP still insist on 17 database checks even after you have a HQL? More delays?If so, what's the point of the HQL?
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
    Staff member
    Admin
    Moderator
    May 22, 2005
    122,856
    So will MSP still insist on 17 database checks even after you have a HQL? More delays?If so, what's the point of the HQL?

    That's a rhetorical question, right? ;)
     

    Fireball

    Active Member
    Mar 5, 2013
    114
    Rising Sun, md
    This is going to put a hurt on the FFLs...

    My wife bought a 9mm back in late may so she wouldn't have to do a HQL. If she is forced to get one due to the laziness of MSP no processing 77Rs in a timely fashion, you best believe we are going to demand a refund on the gun!
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    Why isn't your FFL releasing after 8 days? It will be MSP's fault after Oct.1. Before that your issue is with the FFL IMO.
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    Until one walks in another's shoes... .

    Your call, but I refuse to blame dealers for the state's draconian approach to a person's right of self protection.

    The States Draconion Laws allows for a release of one's property after 8 days if the MSP does not do their job.

    The politicians create laws that restrict our rights, we DO NOT support them.
    The MSP drags their feet in an effort to restrict our rights, we DO NOT support them.
    The FFL, the only person who is actually denying our rights by NOT following the LAW and releasing the firearm when PERFECTLY LEGAL, you say SUPPORT HIM. I cannot follow that logic.
    I for one will not step foot into an Establishment that will continue to hold the property of their customers beyond what the law requires. By continuing to support those dealers you thank them for holding your property. This is a capitalist Nation, we will see who survives.
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    The housing issue is a poor example because you probably had a permit approved before the new law went into effect. It is also a poor example because you make the new law take effect immediately without any exceptions.

    Before law changes go into effect, they usually allow a decent amount of time to pass. That is the case with this one. There is over 5 months to get things wrapped up before the law takes effect. At some point, a law goes into effect and that is the way it goes. They also usually provide grandfather provisions within them so that people will be protected before they go into effect.

    As far as people entering into contracts that can no longer be completed because they become illegal, such is life. Probably had plenty of that happen when marijuana, cocaine, etc. was made illegal back in the day. Heck, a Court can declare a contract null and void as against public policy even when there is not specific statute against it.

    Since the law can always be repealed before it goes into effect and/or stalled (e.g., Obamacare) though I doubt this one will be before it takes effect, a person needs to be actually harmed before they have standing to file a lawsuit.

    The only people who are effected by the STATE "HQL" are the people who purchase a regulated weapon within 8 days of the new law. By law, anyone who purchases a Regulated Firearm 10 days before the new law can take their property home.
     

    ECPDefense

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2010
    161
    Cecil-Tucky
    Really tough to blame the state when the dealers can release but refuse to do so of their own accord. Now, come October 1, 2013 when a HQL is needed, there might be an issue if people cannot obtain the HQL on or extremely close to October 1, 2013. At that point, it becomes entirely the state's fault and no longer the dealers.

    If the state is allowed to take 30 days to perform the background checks and issue the HQL then everyone should be rallied at every MSP barrack in the state demanding their HQL applications to fill out on September 1st!
     

    TxAggie

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 25, 2012
    4,734
    Anne Arundel County, MD
    If the state is allowed to take 30 days to perform the background checks and issue the HQL then everyone should be rallied at every MSP barrack in the state demanding their HQL applications to fill out on September 1st!

    No problem, what form(s) (in triplicate) do I need to fill out and where do I go for fingerprinting?







    Oh, yeah. Never mind.
     

    Fireball

    Active Member
    Mar 5, 2013
    114
    Rising Sun, md
    Why isn't your FFL releasing after 8 days? It will be MSP's fault after Oct.1. Before that your issue is with the FFL IMO.

    Cause Freestate can't do a NICS check...MSP refuses to relinquish control on that. This was clearly purchased prior to the 8-day release started (late May)....Had we known that was coming, we clearly would've gone to a participating dealer :envy:
     

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