What makes an HBAR an HBAR?

ELEMENT94 · Apr 8, 2013

A1Uniform said:
This has actually been covered many times on the forums.

The list says Colt HBAR Sporter, but MSP provided guidance to dealers after that list was compiled that says that any AR that the dealer can articulate is a heavy barreled rifle can be sold cash and carry under the CURRENT law.

It does NOT have to be stamped HBAR, and its is not only the Colt Sproter HBAR.

This makes the dealer responsible for mistakes in this regard, which is why many dealers, and wisely so, lean to the side of caution and sell guns they are not positive about as regulated.

If a gun is not actually stamped HBAR, the only way to be sure, is to pull the hand guards and ensure that the barrel has a heavy contour for its full length.

Before you ask, I don't have this info handy in writing, but I have personally spoken to supervisory folks at the Licensing Division about this on more than one occasion, and am confident its is correct. Would I risk my licence otherwise?

Sense at last.

highwayheat · Apr 8, 2013

When i purchased a Colt 6721 H-Bar is was cash and carry after a NICS check. Lower is not marked with an H-Bar designation.

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
I don't mean to be rude but you just are not reading this correctly. It lists all firearms by one name... however it clearly says in the beginning that each firearm listed covers all copies of that firearm... They just try to list the first manufacturer to develop the design, as after that the are just copies.

No rudeness interpreted, we're all just trying to get our heads around a very complicated piece of legislation.

Ok, if you were to remove the first part of the law and distribute it into the list it would read:

(xv) Colt AR–15 or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it, CAR–15 or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it , and all imitations or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it except Colt AR–15 4 Sporter H–BAR rifle or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it.;

I disagree. One of the first things you learn in law school is to interpret the law in its strictest possible capacity. The Colt AR-15 and its copies clause is prefatory to the Colt Sporter HBAR exemption. A strict reading of that line would easily be enforceable as a ban on all non-Colt HBARs.

Further, because Colt holds the patents/trademarks/etc. to the AR name (as they bought Armalite), it is not meant to be read as Colt-specific. As such, a Bushmaster AR would be considered an imitation of the 'Colt AR-15', whether we like it or not.

IMBLITZVT · Apr 8, 2013

ELEMENT94 said:
The MD list of regulated firearms.

http://www.oag.state.md.us/Opinions/2010/95oag101.pdf

Buddy, you are killing me... it says "or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon...”"at the top of page 102... which is exactly what I posted...

Also listed:
"(xv) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations
except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle;"

Come on man, read it again!

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

I've read every copy of the bill and every variant, and I've read that line perhaps a hundred times. I am not a lawyer, but I did take two years of law school before jumping ship, and this is of course not legal advice -- but that said, because there is no "and all imitations" after the "except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR", it does not exempt all imitations.

Brooklyn · Apr 8, 2013

bmelton said:
No rudeness interpreted, we're all just trying to get our heads around a very complicated piece of legislation.

I disagree. One of the first things you learn in law school is to interpret the law in its strictest possible capacity. The Colt AR-15 and its copies clause is prefatory to the Colt Sporter HBAR exemption. A strict reading of that line would easily be enforceable as a ban on all non-Colt HBARs.

Further, because Colt holds the patents/trademarks/etc. to the AR name (as they bought Armalite), it is not meant to be read as Colt-specific. As such, a Bushmaster AR would be considered an imitation of the 'Colt AR-15', whether we like it or not.

This would require violence to the word 'copy 'as applied to other regulated firearms. It appears only once if it does not apply to explicilt excluded members of a class it can not apply to explicitly included members either.

And as a result many non clone copy firearms may be exempt. Also it would mean that m1 carbines fixed stock copies are regulated by the same statutory construction. Or copies of any other firearm mentioned with an explicit exemption where another model is regulated. Like say the mini- 14 .

It may be tested in court now that it is a ban, but I am betting the ban will be thrown out.

Markp · Apr 8, 2013

ELEMENT94 said:
You are wrong. Reading the law vervatim results in only one thing. The Colt rollmarked sporter HBAR is allowed, NOTHING else. no where does it say variants, clones, lookalikes, copycats, etc..Interpretation is the problem.

Laws do NOT permit things, unless they have already restricted them first. It could say that Colt AR-15's and CAR-15's are regulated except for the COLT AR-15 Sporter Nutbuster. The point is that the COLT AR-15 HBAR sporter is a SUBSET of the Colt AR-15 line of weapons and functionally similar enough that the legislature thought to exempt it due to it's impact in the sports shooting community (most notably CMP). Defining characteristic of the AR-15 is it's 5.56x45/.223 caliber, bolt, DI system, charging system, etc. Remove any of the major features common to ALL Colt AR-15's and it's NOT an AR-15.

If the rifle is NOT a Colt AR-15, CAR-15, or a COPY of a CAR-15 or AR-15, it is NOT regulated. If it is an AR-15 and has an HBAR barrel, it is not regulated, as that is the defining difference between the rest of the AR-15 family and the AR-15 HBAR Sporter. This is also why, AR style rifles in other calibers are not and should not be regulated, why piston drive AR style rifles, AR-57's, and a whole host of other related, but NOT IMITATIONS of the AR-15 line of weapons, are NOT REGULATED. Period, end of story!

ELEMENT94 · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Buddy, you are killing me... it says "or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon...”"at the top of page 102... which is exactly what I posted...

Also listed:
"(xv) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations
except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle;"

Come on man, read it again!

The regulated list says ALL AR15s are regulated (now banned) EXCEPT Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle.

IMBLITZVT · Apr 8, 2013

bmelton said:
I disagree. One of the first things you learn in law school is to interpret the law in its strictest possible capacity. The Colt AR-15 and its copies clause is prefatory to the Colt Sporter HBAR exemption. A strict reading of that line would easily be enforceable as a ban on all non-Colt HBARs.

Further, because Colt holds the patents/trademarks/etc. to the AR name (as they bought Armalite), it is not meant to be read as Colt-specific. As such, a Bushmaster AR would be considered an imitation of the 'Colt AR-15', whether we like it or not.

The problem comes from the fact that you are just ignoring the beginning of the law and only reading the one line referencing the AR15. No where do you account for what that says in the beginning. If the first part was not there, I would agree. However it is and so what you have there is wrong and is being confused because the poor wording in the law that basically duplicates itself by first saying it covers all "copies" and then in that line says "all imitations".

You can also tell this because only allowing one manufacturer of a type of gun would be grounds for getting the law tossed as unequal treatment under the law... so I have no doubt I am correct about it. MSP agrees...

Also consider this. What would a non-colt HBAR be a Clone of? Clearily its not an imitation or copy of a "Colt AR-15, CAR-15" since its the same as a Colt HBAR... So if thats the same, since not reference in the list, its no restricted...

ELEMENT94 · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
The problem comes from the fact that you are just ignoring the beginning of the law and only reading the one line referencing the AR15. No where do you account for what that saysin the beginning. If they first part was not there, I would agree. However it is and so what you have there is wrong and is being confused because the poor wording in the law that basically duplicates itself by first saying it covers all "copies" and then in that line says "all imitations".

You can also tell this because only allowing one manufacturer of a type of gun would be grounds for getting the law tossed as unequal treatment under the law... so I have no doubt I am correct about it. MSP agrees...

Also consider this. What would a non-colt HBAR be a Clone be? Clearily its not an imitation or copy of a "Colt AR-15, CAR-15" since its the same as a Colt HBAR... So if thats the same, since not reference in the list, its no restricted...

The list is part of the law. I'm sorry if it is contradictory. Read this post. perhaps it will help.

Originally Posted by A1Uniform
This has actually been covered many times on the forums.

The list says Colt HBAR Sporter, but MSP provided guidance to dealers after that list was compiled that says that any AR that the dealer can articulate is a heavy barreled rifle can be sold cash and carry under the CURRENT law.

It does NOT have to be stamped HBAR, and its is not only the Colt Sproter HBAR.

This makes the dealer responsible for mistakes in this regard, which is why many dealers, and wisely so, lean to the side of caution and sell guns they are not positive about as regulated.

If a gun is not actually stamped HBAR, the only way to be sure, is to pull the hand guards and ensure that the barrel has a heavy contour for its full length.

Before you ask, I don't have this info handy in writing, but I have personally spoken to supervisory folks at the Licensing Division about this on more than one occasion, and am confident its is correct. Would I risk my licence otherwise?

IMBLITZVT · Apr 8, 2013

ELEMENT94 said:
...EXCEPT Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle.

"or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it."

The whole section must be taken into account. Not just one line...

IF we are wrong, explain what this means! when it says "or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon...”"at the top of page 102...

Please explain to us what that part of the law means!

"The list is part of the law. I'm sorry if it is contradictory. Read this post. perhaps it will help. "

That is exactly what I am saying... and not what you are saying...?

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
The problem comes from the fact that you are just ignoring the beginning of the law and only reading the one line referencing the AR15. No where do you account for what that says in the beginning. If the first part was not there, I would agree. However it is and so what you have there is wrong and is being confused because the poor wording in the law that basically duplicates itself by first saying it covers all "copies" and then in that line says "all imitations".

I guaran-double-tee you that I am reading it the same way as a judge hearing your case might.

The major difference is that they have the ability to determine whether or not it makes sense and judge on that. I, being susceptible to someone else's interpretation, will err on the side of caution. You of course do not have to, but as the line is written, Colt HBAR clones are not exempted. This is not because I am ignoring any part of anything, it is because I am reading the line as a lawyer would, which is to say that it is with the most scrutiny possible.

You can also tell this because only allowing one manufacturer of a type of gun would be grounds for getting the law tossed as unequal treatment under the law... so I have no doubt I am correct about it. MSP agrees...

This is very likely, actually. California has Harrott vs. County of Kings, but regrettably, that decision was handed down by the CA SC, and does not extend beyond the borders of California. You could very well argue that any time you see the "and imitations" or "and copies" that it will not be upheld on legal scrutiny, however, we have no precedent on that I am aware of in Maryland, so again, it's a gamble.

I very much hope that you are right.

A1Uni · Apr 8, 2013

In this case the difference in how the law was written and how it is interpreted and exercised by MSP works to our great advantage, so let's just chalk this one up as a win and move on.

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

A1Uniform said:
In this case the difference in how the law was written and how it is interpreted and exercised by MSP works to our great advantage, so let's just chalk this one up as a win and move on.

Works for me.

IMBLITZVT · Apr 8, 2013

bmelton said:
I guaran-double-tee you that I am reading it the same way as a judge hearing your case might. ...
I very much hope that you are right.

Ok, then there should be an easy way to convince me. Please explain what this means:
"15 (2)....or
16 their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault
17 weapon:"
According to your strict scrutiny, this part of the law has no meaning then... So please explain what they mean here. Then explain how this does not relate to the line talking about Colt ARs...

ELEMENT94 · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
"or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it."

The whole section must be taken into account. Not just one line...

IF we are wrong, explain what this means! when it says "or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon...”"at the top of page 102...

Please explain to us what that part of the law means!

"The list is part of the law. I'm sorry if it is contradictory. Read this post. perhaps it will help. "

That is exactly what I am saying... and not what you are saying...?

Changed for you....

"the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of
which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon..." [then from the list:] Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations
except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle;

IT STILL SAYS THE SAME THING. ALL AR15s are regulated except the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle.

Remember I'm on your side.

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Ok, then there should be an easy way to convince me. Please explain what this means:
"15 (2)....or
16 their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault
17 weapon:"
According to your strict scrutiny, this part of the law has no meaning then... So please explain what they mean here. Then explain how this does not relate to the line talking about Colt ARs...

If you uncrop the sentence just in front of that one, you'll see that the definition you posted applies to regulated firearms. As we've clearly established, the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR is not a regulated firearm, and as such, that definition does not apply to it.

I feel like I should point out that the argument being used here is the same one constantly being used against us that lets people mistakenly spout off that our rights are only applicable to "a militia".

We all know that's wrong, and I wouldn't let our optimism get away with us here. Obviously, if there's a superceding opinion by the MSP that says "go ahead and sell HBAR clones", that's fine -- so long as you never have to go to court to defend it. At least in that case though, you have an MSP opinion to reference.

As mentioned, we are all on the same side here, I just really don't want to see anyone jailed for exercising their rights, and I can only imagine how much extra enforcement MOM is going to require to get more of these 'evil weapons' off the street once the law is passed.

garyad · Apr 8, 2013

scottymd said:
MSP should know what they are going to enforce and they won't clarify what that is.

It's OK, they will know when they see it. :rolleyes:

IMBLITZVT · Apr 8, 2013

bmelton said:
If you uncrop the sentence just in front of that one, you'll see that the definition you posted applies to regulated firearms. As we've clearly established, the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR is not a regulated firearm, and as such, that definition does not apply to it.
.. passed.

Uncropped.
"(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or 15 their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault 16 weapon:"

Here is what I see. When it says any of the following... the HBAR is in the following... its then just given an specific exemption from the list. However it still one of the follow and so the copies part of this law still applies to it. What the law says is that the HBAR is an assault weapon and it and its clones are except from the law restricting them.

Basically, in math terms we are having an order of operations question. You say that line removes it from the list so the copies part of the law does not apply. I say the copy part is included first (and written first) and so it and all its copies are excluded from the list.

I see your point and think its not correct. I think the spirit of the law agrees with what I am saying and so does MSP. There are no hard feelings here, we are just having a friendly conversation. You have made an interesting point that I think is wrong but do think I see where you are coming from.

ELEMENT94 · Apr 8, 2013

garyad said:
It's OK, they will know when they see it.

Thats part of the problem.

What makes an HBAR an HBAR?

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