scottymd
Active Member
MSP should know what they are going to enforce and they won't clarify what that is.
What makes an HBAR an HBAR?
- Thread starter Hopalong
- Start date
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MSP should know what they are going to enforce and they won't clarify what that is.
- Jan 31, 2009
- 3,284
nothing has changed (yet) concerning HBARs.
so if they were unregulated before, they remain unregulated and not banned
question is if the current interpretation that MSP gave MLFDA will evaporate on October 1st.
so let's just say they remain unregulated and not banned, and hopefully that will continue
and no they don't have to be marked HBAR. the barrel dimensions define HBAR without the need for marking them. lots of unregulated HBARs out there with no marks on them
pcfixer
Ultimate Member
H= heavy
Bar=short for barrel..
i have couple hbar rifles.. it doesnt say anything on reciever.. except one says match target (oly).
good question though what MSP allow to be hbar rifles. i've seen plenty different brands with heavy barrel but no other special marks on the reciever/lower.
Same here. Mine is not marked. RRA Elite Operator is HBAR by definiton.
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2430
Markp
Ultimate Member
- Dec 22, 2008
- 9,392
The correct answer is: Pixie dust.
That's right, there is nothing magic other than the pixie dust and barrel profile that makes an HBAR, an HBAR.
I wish people would read the f'ing law correctly, what is regulated/soon to be banned, is the Colt AR-15, Colt CAR-15, and all Imitations of the Colt AR-15 and CAR-15. The HBAR variants are specifically exempted. This does NOT mean that ALL AR-15 variants are affected, only those variants that are identical to the Colt AR-15 and the Colt CAR-15.
Now that still affects a lot of rifles, but less than the number everyone works so hard to restrict their own rights to. Sweet Jesus, please stop reading into the law. Parse it accurately and read ONLY what it says. (I am guilty of having done this in the past myself. Took several lawyers beating me over the head to cure me of common sense.)
That's right, there is nothing magic other than the pixie dust and barrel profile that makes an HBAR, an HBAR.
I wish people would read the f'ing law correctly, what is regulated/soon to be banned, is the Colt AR-15, Colt CAR-15, and all Imitations of the Colt AR-15 and CAR-15. The HBAR variants are specifically exempted. This does NOT mean that ALL AR-15 variants are affected, only those variants that are identical to the Colt AR-15 and the Colt CAR-15.
Now that still affects a lot of rifles, but less than the number everyone works so hard to restrict their own rights to. Sweet Jesus, please stop reading into the law. Parse it accurately and read ONLY what it says. (I am guilty of having done this in the past myself. Took several lawyers beating me over the head to cure me of common sense.)
MSP will define it and have in the past, there are several FFLs that have letters from MSP advising that HBARs by other manufacturers are C&C (That is how I got my Bushmaster).
By the way, any barrel that is fluted is considered and HBAR.
ELEMENT94
Wild eyed pistol waver.
- Sep 23, 2007
- 487
You are wrong. Reading the law vervatim results in only one thing. The Colt rollmarked sporter HBAR is allowed, NOTHING else. no where does it say variants, clones, lookalikes, copycats, etc..Interpretation is the problem.
IMBLITZVT
Ultimate Member
Actually, you copied part of the law VERBATIM. The problem with doing that is you missed a very important part. This is what is written before it starts the list of which you copied some of:
13 [(p)] (R) “Regulated firearm” means:
14 (1) a handgun; or
15 (2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or
16 their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault
17 weapon:
I have learned that its better read from the beginning of the section to the end of the section as sometimes important parts are not were you think they are.
Back to the topic. Here a clear issues is who defines what "Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR" is? At first you would think MSP but actually I think it would have to be Colt... the way the law is written... If Colt renames a FAL " Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR"... how could MSP say its banned when the law clearly said a specific model "name" is exempt...??? All MSP can do it tell us what counts as a Clone...
But that the definition of copies only applies to regulated firearms, which the Colt HBAR is not. Therefore, that definition doesn't apply to imitations of the Colt HBAR sporter.
I'm not saying definitively one way or the other, but the safest interpretation is to assume that all HBARs are expressly disallowed except for Colt Sporter HBARs, sold as a completed unit.
I'm not saying definitively one way or the other, but the safest interpretation is to assume that all HBARs are expressly disallowed except for Colt Sporter HBARs, sold as a completed unit.
Hopalong
Man of Many Nicknames
Any chance you could get a copy of one of those scanned and posted here? I have a feeling that said letter may come in real handy in a few months....
IMBLITZVT
Ultimate Member
No, thats just looking for something. The fact that its listed by names clearly means that that model and its copies. Clearly the list is made so that they don't have to write "their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon" after every firearm.
So by this crazy logic what would a clone of a Colt HBAR be? Clearly the HBAR is not one of the listed banned guns... so its not a clone of a restricted gun then... Its circle logic...
Going by what is safest... you should sell all your guns and ammo because like the IRS, the ATF can get you for something if they wish... This safest crap will have us giving up our gun rights without them even trying to take them. No what the law says is what is says, no more. If not clear, then the court must rule against the Government.
I will check and see what I can come up with.
Brooklyn
I stand with John Locke.
Yes it does. It excluded hbars from the restricted class and then includes all copies of firearms in that class as members of that class.So any copy of an explicitly excluded
As interpreted the force of the word copy is identical when including or excluding a firearm from the class of regulated firearms. Otherwise any copy that was not an exact clone of a regulated firearm would not be regulated.
The word copy appears only once and therefore can only have one meaning.
Now if you take an hbar and remove the barrel and replace with a tapered barell then it is no longer a copy of an hbar.
Since no court has ruled its not possible to know.
ELEMENT94
Wild eyed pistol waver.
- Sep 23, 2007
- 487
Read the regulated firearms list. Not this. This does not even mention the HBAR rifle at all.
What is regulated is a specific list of rifles and copies of those specific rifles.
They specifically call out a rifle and say "NOTE: Rifle Z is not regulated"
Why would we assume that copies of rifle Z would be regulated? (after 10/1 substitute banned for regulated).
I wouldn't put it past them to change the rules on us, but in the past copies of the colt HBAR have been C&C. There're some that have sold as regulated to be "safe". But as far as I know there has never been a prosecution of someone for selling a colt hbar clone as unregulated.
That's taking it to the far extreme, and ignores the text we're critiquing. You have a definition for regulated firearm, which is great, but only as a definition for firearms that are regulated. We know that the Colt Sporter HBAR is not regulated, because it is specifically exempted.
Then, I must assume you interpet this to mean something it doesn't say:
"Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle"
It does not say "except COLT AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle and all imitations", it exempts the one firearm by name.
I'm not saying it's impossible that MSP interpretation will fall towards a lenient interpretation of that, however, if that happens, it's not because the law wasn't specific enough on the exemptions list. It is clear as day that only one make and model firearm is exempted from the list of AR-15s, and it is the Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR.
This has actually been covered many times on the forums.
The list says Colt HBAR Sporter, but MSP provided guidance to dealers after that list was compiled that says that any AR that the dealer can articulate is a heavy barreled rifle can be sold cash and carry under the CURRENT law.
It does NOT have to be stamped HBAR, and its is not only the Colt Sproter HBAR.
This makes the dealer responsible for mistakes in this regard, which is why many dealers, and wisely so, lean to the side of caution and sell guns they are not positive about as regulated.
If a gun is not actually stamped HBAR, the only way to be sure, is to pull the hand guards and ensure that the barrel has a heavy contour for its full length.
Before you ask, I don't have this info handy in writing, but I have personally spoken to supervisory folks at the Licensing Division about this on more than one occasion, and am confident its is correct. Would I risk my licence otherwise?
The list says Colt HBAR Sporter, but MSP provided guidance to dealers after that list was compiled that says that any AR that the dealer can articulate is a heavy barreled rifle can be sold cash and carry under the CURRENT law.
It does NOT have to be stamped HBAR, and its is not only the Colt Sproter HBAR.
This makes the dealer responsible for mistakes in this regard, which is why many dealers, and wisely so, lean to the side of caution and sell guns they are not positive about as regulated.
If a gun is not actually stamped HBAR, the only way to be sure, is to pull the hand guards and ensure that the barrel has a heavy contour for its full length.
Before you ask, I don't have this info handy in writing, but I have personally spoken to supervisory folks at the Licensing Division about this on more than one occasion, and am confident its is correct. Would I risk my licence otherwise?
IMBLITZVT
Ultimate Member
Please post what you are talking about... I did read and post it... I don't have a clue what you are talking about now. I think you may need to read it again.
I don't mean to be rude but you just are not reading this correctly. It lists all firearms by one name... however it clearly says in the beginning that each firearm listed covers all copies of that firearm... They just try to list the first manufacturer to develop the design, as after that the are just copies.
Ok, if you were to remove the first part of the law and distribute it into the list it would read:
(xv) Colt AR–15 or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it, CAR–15 or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it , and all imitations or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it except Colt AR–15 4 Sporter H–BAR rifle or copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured it.;
- Feb 19, 2013
- 18,724
Have no doubt it would work. The Colts with the roll LE only, you all go ahead and carry them, I'll stick with the Vanilla marking
Hopalong
Man of Many Nicknames
Thank you.
ELEMENT94
Wild eyed pistol waver.
- Sep 23, 2007
- 487
