Expungments, Disclosure & Maryland State Police Applications

Not sure the legal definition as opposes to possess meaning to have as one's own, to own.
Seems to me if the owner is there and allowing use while the owner is there you technically do not possess (like with those under 18) but the chance is not worth it considering the penalty.

I don't think it was PBJ since he got 6 months suspended (IANAL so I don't know if both can happen).

I finally got a chance to ask the Clerk of The Court for Baltimore County about what happens when she receives an order to expunge a record. She said that the record is "deleted" from the system and there are no secret codes or clearances that allow access to expunged records, because they are no longer there. Be paranoid if you want but this comes straight from the person responsible for overseeing such duties.

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Straightshooter said:

I finally got a chance to ask the Clerk of The Court for Baltimore County about what happens when she receives an order to expunge a record. She said that the record is "deleted" from the system and there are no secret codes or clearances that allow access to expunged records, because they are no longer there. Be paranoid if you want but this comes straight from the person responsible for overseeing such duties.

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Well....maybe...but tell me how my younger brother was denied a DoD security clearance 20 years after a juvenile offense and 7 years after expungement...reason given was his juvenile record...which was "expunged" 7 years beforehand....It might be "gone" from the state record but someone had a copy...

Muleskinner said:

Well....maybe...but tell me how my younger brother was denied a DoD security clearance 20 years after a juvenile offense and 7 years after expungement...reason given was his juvenile record...which was "expunged" 7 years beforehand....It might be "gone" from the state record but someone had a copy...

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There's much more to the clearance process than that. Severity of the offense plays a role. Depending on the clearance level, even if the offense was expunged, he would have been required to divulge it and would have been questioned about it. I know from direct experience with affected candidates that very high levels of clearance are granted to people with old arrest/conviction records, assuming the behavior is long gone and the candidate is very forthcoming with details. It's all about honesty during the clearance vetting process. If interviewers thought he was holding back or being dishonest about his record, then that's why he was denied, rather than for simply having an expunged record.

Muleskinner said:

Well....maybe...but tell me how my younger brother was denied a DoD security clearance 20 years after a juvenile offense and 7 years after expungement...reason given was his juvenile record...which was "expunged" 7 years beforehand....It might be "gone" from the state record but someone had a copy...

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Don't shoot the messenger.
My guess is he did as many here do when asked about arrests for expunged offenses and opened up to the investigator. Just because you have something expunged doesn't mean that the investigator will be all smiles and full of forgiveness if you bring something up that you should have STFU about. Even if the paper or digital trail has been erased, fessing up is as good as a confession.

Straightshooter said:

Don't shoot the messenger.
My guess is he did as many here do when asked about arrests for expunged offenses and opened up to the investigator. Just because you have something expunged doesn't mean that the investigator will be all smiles and full of forgiveness if you bring something up that you should have STFU about. Even if the paper or digital trail has been erased, fessing up is as good as a confession.

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Have you been through the process for TS and above, with poly in particular? You *must* divulge expunged offenses under penalty of perjury. If you "STFU" and are found out later, as part of recent security clearance reform, you can expect to be indicted and prosecuted.

Always disclose for security clearances. Let the people who process the clearance decide what is serious.

Largely, they are looking for a pattern of conduct. If you got into some trouble years ago, are open about it, and he been clean since, they can work with you.

The worse thing you can do is lie and force them to find out about it latter.

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Boom Boom said:

Have you been through the process for TS and above, with poly in particular? You *must* divulge expunged offenses under penalty of perjury. If you "STFU" and are found out later, as part of recent security clearance reform, you can expect to be indicted and prosecuted.

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Had TS when I was in the military. I have also been polygraphed for a different job.

Polygraphs are ********. A divining rod can do as good a job as a poly at detecting a lie. Why do you think they're not admissible in court. They're used to make you squirm so you'll give up more information.

In my book, it's not perjury when THE LAW says you do not have to divulge the expunged information ever again.

Straightshooter said:

In my book, it's not perjury when THE LAW says you do not have to divulge the expunged information ever again.

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EXCEPT during the federal clearance process. Lie at your own peril. Could find yourself on a long vacation in club fed.

CypherPunk said:

For the attorney's, current/former LEO's and other knowledgeable parties...

I am interested in the discussion of the following scenario:

A potential Maryland State Police (MSP) Maryland Handgun Permit (MHP) applicant files a Petition for Expungment of Police and Court Records, and receives a Certificate of Compliance from each relevant agency. After 60 days, the potential applicant than completes a fingerprint supported CJIS record check and confirms the expungement.

Questions:

1. Does the this or other applicable statutes protect applicants from having to disclose expunged record(s)?

2. If so, should MSP MHP applications notify applicants that expunged or pardoned records are not required to be disclosed (similar to Federal forms which state that SSN's are optional, but not required)?

3. Is it likely or probable that MSP would discover the expunged arrest or charges anyway?

4. If not required, should an applicant therefore disclose such expunged records regardless.


Expungment - Information about Removing Criminal Records from Public Access In Maryland, Maryland Judciary View attachment 144909

TIA

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It's my understanding that one "expunged" they do not need to be listed, but the MSP permit application says "ever" without an explanation as to what is required to be disclosed without regard to expunged records.

This was a topic brought up by the applicant who had the hearing during the last HPRB meeting. He got some bad info from a trainer and applied for this permit. My question, isn't he a prohibited person? He should have never taken the live fire portion of the permit class, correct?

Boom Boom said:

EXCEPT during the federal clearance process. Lie at your own peril. Could find yourself on a long vacation in club fed.

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Look, I gave you the information that was given to me. Do what the **** you want to do with it. It's up to each individual to decide how to proceed. If going for a DOD clearance maybe you might want to disclose, going to buy a Sig or apply for a CCW in MD, maybe not.

Straightshooter said:

Look, I gave you the information that was given to me. Do what the **** you want to do with it. It's up to each individual to decide how to proceed. If going for a DOD clearance maybe you might want to disclose, going to buy a Sig or apply for a CCW in MD, maybe not.

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You were given misinformation then. No need to get bent out of shape about being incorrect. I assume you haven't been through the DoD process. TS and up clearance, in no uncertain terms, requires you to divulge expunged criminal justice information under penalty of perjury (at the federal level). It is clearly stated in the paperwork that you are required to sign and submit. The same paperwork used for your BI by NSA and/or FBI. You have no option to opt out of the question or legally lie if you decide to move forward with the process.

Non-DoD clearance processes are a different ball game. You can, and in my opinion should, say you have no criminal history if it's been expunged.

Boom Boom said:

You were given misinformation then. No need to get bent out of shape about being incorrect. I assume you haven't been through the DoD process. TS and up clearance, in no uncertain terms, requires you to divulge expunged criminal justice information under penalty of perjury (at the federal level). It is clearly stated in the paperwork that you are required to sign and submit. The same paperwork used for your BI by NSA and/or FBI. You have no option to opt out of the question or legally lie if you decide to move forward with the process.

Non-DoD clearance processes are a different ball game. You can, and in my opinion should, say you have no criminal history if it's been expunged.

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I'll be sure to let the Clerk Of The Court know that she doesn't know what she's talking about. Give me your email address so she can contact you in the future if she has any questions as to how to do her job.

This thread concerns the MSP, CCW permits and Expungements. If you want to educate everyone on DOD claearance procedures please start another thread.

Please tell me how the feds will know that I had an expungement if there is not record on file. Please comrade, tell me all you know.

Straightshooter said:

I'll be sure to let the Clerk Of The Court know that she doesn't know what she's talking about. Give me your email address so she can contact you in the future if she has any questions as to how to do her job.

This thread concerns the MSP, CCW permits and Expungements. If you want to educate everyone on DOD claearance procedures please start another thread.

Please tell me how the feds will know that I had an expungement if there is not record on file. Please comrade, tell me all you know.

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You're clearly being belligerent and intentionally misreading my previous posts. Your choice. Not a constructive way to conduct your life.

Your choice to lie to DoD about expungements. Just read your clearance paperwork carefully the next time around. If you choose to commit perjury, well, good luck if you're found out. There's a reasonable chance BI personnel might stumble onto it when they speak with your family, neighbors, and current and former colleagues.

Straightshooter said:

I'll be sure to let the Clerk Of The Court know that she doesn't know what she's talking about. Give me your email address so she can contact you in the future if she has any questions as to how to do her job.

This thread concerns the MSP, CCW permits and Expungements. If you want to educate everyone on DOD claearance procedures please start another thread.

Please tell me how the feds will know that I had an expungement if there is not record on file. Please comrade, tell me all you know.

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I don’t think that its that simple. It is my understanding that the NCIC contains and FBI-only accessible portion to it. The FBI is under no obligation to purge these records upon the receipt of an order for expungement. Consequently, if you have to go through an FBI background check, then the criminal charge and disposition might show up. Please note that I am not 100% sure of this. You may get different answers for this question depending on who you talk to.

Also there are departments within each county court that may keep records that survive an expungement. For example, most counties have diversion programs for minor offences, that if completed, would result in the nol pros of the charge. Often the diversion program is only offered for a 1st offence. This database sometimes flags individuals who seek to enroll in the same diversion program for a subsequent offence even though the 1st offence was expunged. While these records will not show up on a background check, they are still out there. You just have to look harder.

Finally, there are private databases with this information that will survive expungement. After you were charged, did you receive a crap-load of mailers from defense attorneys? Do you ever wonder why? Its because someone collected this information and sold it off.

I fail to understand why the FBI would have the records of offenses for things that are so far down the ladder of importance as to be worthy of expungement in the first place.

If you have ever done an expungement, you'd know that it is not restricted to court records. You can specify any other agency that you wish the order to include, such as parole and probation, first offender programs, the police department and so on. You will receive an acknowledgement from each stating that your records have been destroyed.

I have had an expungement. I do not reveal it on any applications including the ones that have been sent to the FBI, NCIC and whatever the 17 databases are that MSP uses for CCW applications. There has never been a problem of the record magically appearing from black hole of data.

Now, find me someone who has had their expunged record reappear without running their mouth and I'll be all ears.

Straightshooter said:

I fail to understand why the FBI would have the records of offenses for things that are so far down the ladder of importance as to be worthy of expungement in the first place.

If you have ever done an expungement, you'd know that it is not restricted to court records. You can specify any other agency that you wish the order to include, such as parole and probation, first offender programs, the police department and so on. You will receive an acknowledgement from each stating that your records have been destroyed.

I have had an expungement. I do not reveal it on any applications including the ones that have been sent to the FBI, NCIC and whatever the 17 databases are that MSP uses for CCW applications. There has never been a problem of the record magically appearing from black hole of data.

Now, find me someone who has had their expunged record reappear without running their mouth and I'll be all ears.

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Expunged records are accessible by law enforcement, the State's Attorney, Judges, etc. I have seen instances where the Assistant State's Attorney knows about a prior citation/charge when the prior citation/charge was expunged. It usually only comes up when the prior citation/charge was granted a PBJ. A Nolle or Not Guilty cannot be held against a person in sentencing, just a prior PBJ.

Here is an excerpt from the Court's Expungement Handbook:

Expungement is the removal of records from public inspection. In Maryland, records may be expunged from 1) Motor Vehicle Administration files, 2) police files and 3) court and police files. Each process removes very specific files and must be done through the proper agency. You must apply for expungement of each arrest based on the date of arrest and according to the disposition. No process expunges the records from all agencies.

Md Code Criminal Procedure §10–109.
(a) (1) Disclosure of expunged information about criminal charges in an application, interview, or other means may not be required:
(i) by an employer or educational institution of a person who applies for employment or admission; or
(ii) by a unit, official, or employee of the State or a political subdivision of the State of a person who applies for a license, permit, registration, or governmental service.
(2) A person need not refer to or give information concerning an expunged charge when answering a question concerning:
(i) a criminal charge that did not result in a conviction; or
(ii) a conviction that the Governor pardoned.
(3) Refusal by a person to disclose information about criminal charges that have been expunged may not be the sole reason for:
(i) an employer to discharge or refuse to hire the person; or
(ii) a unit, official, or employee of the State or a political subdivision of the State to deny the person’s application.
(b) (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or both for each violation.
(2) In addition to the penalties provided in paragraph (1) of this subsection, an official or employee of the State or a political subdivision of the State who is convicted under this section may be removed or dismissed from public service.

Now, something that needs to be kept in mind is that Maryland law pretty much applies only in Maryland. This statute does not apply outside of Maryland. I have had clients not disclose expunged charges when applying for a CCW and they have received their CCW without a problem.

Expunged charges do not need to be disclosed on the application for the bar exam. At least that is how it was back in 1998 and based upon the current reading of the statute how I would believe it is today.

Yes, once the Court Clerk deletes the information from the electronic database and marks the file as expunged, none of that information is accessible to Joe Public. However, the bigger question is whether the Court Clerk runs the file through a shredder at that point. I don't think the file is shredded, but I have never actually asked the Court Clerk that question.

while the original charge/offense will not be able to be viewed since it was expunged, there is an indicator that "something" was expunged, showing that at one point there was a charge/conviction of some type hanging out there at some point.

I know this because when I was 19 I received a DUI, it was a stupid mistake but it happened none the less. While I had it expunged from my record, for all my clearance paperwork I still list the DUI, even though its out of the timeline requirements and its expunged for 15 years I want to be upfront with the information. Do I think you need to list it on the MD CCW, No. But like others have said, only you can make that call.

Would I list it on some sort of State application/paperwork for something? Probably not.

Clearance paperwork for my TS, yes indeed.

Semantics? I don't think so. If a questions asks if you have ever been ARRESTED, well an expungement doesn't UN-arrest you because you literally were detained and arrested. You would be lying if you said no.

Definitely a personal sticky wicket for sure.

I listed my expunged charges on my MD carry permit only because i had previously applied prior to expungement and had been denied. Attached my expungement papers and got my carry permit a few months later.