PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

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  • Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    Correct me if I am wrong please.

    There is a stay in effect. It is temporary but still there. MSP is not defying any judges orders or rulings. They have the legal right to deny all of us for not having G&S reasons. It looks to me that they are trying to be nice by not taking our money or if they have taken it to let ours in limbo till something is set in stone for them. They could just be trying not to hurt there 97% rating. Is this a wise decision we thats up to the AG and Gura. The big thing is that they can LEGALLY deny them if they want to.

    Was it nice of the MSP to flat out ignore the $$$ you paid for a livescan, time from work to get scanned, passport photos, and travel to a livescan location?

    The above is the equivilant, if not more than the MSP fee...
     

    csanc123

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 26, 2009
    4,155
    Montgomery County
    They SURE took my money! So if they deny me I want my money back.

    Correct me if I am wrong please.

    There is a stay in effect. It is temporary but still there. MSP is not defying any judges orders or rulings. They have the legal right to deny all of us for not having G&S reasons. It looks to me that they are trying to be nice by not taking our money or if they have taken it to let ours in limbo till something is set in stone for them. They could just be trying not to hurt there 97% rating. Is this a wise decision we thats up to the AG and Gura. The big thing is that they can LEGALLY deny them if they want to.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Didn't realize the OP submitted after the stay. That's legally deniable. However, they still aren't following state law.
     

    LCPIWB

    Needs an avatar
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,001
    Underneath the blimp, Md.
    I have not read all 5 pages of this thread and no offense to the OP but how did you submit you application and receive a snail mail letter in return stating you were not going to be processed and had your money returned within 5 days of the application submission? Am I missing something here since there were members who applied weeks ago and haven't even gotten a phone call regarding this process?

    As one of the people who submitted early right after the Wollard decision, I can not say if we are "better off" than the OP and additional poster for getting denied immediately. I would argue they can now be party to the suit if they were members of SAF and seek immediate relief. As for me I have not been called either yet..But I can consider that a good sign.
    Hang tight, let things play out.
     

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    Was it nice of the MSP to flat out ignore the $$$ you paid for a livescan, time from work to get scanned, passport photos, and travel to a livescan location?

    The above is the equivilant, if not more than the MSP fee...
    :thumbsup:
    If I were the OP, I would resubmit just for the facts that Inigoes stated above and to at least be able to go thru the appeal process. Does anybody know how long after you are denied it takes for them to hear an appeal?
     

    Dal1as

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2009
    4,122
    [Comments in-line]

    Dear Applicant:

    As you may know on March 2, 2012, Judge Benson Everett Legg of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland ruled that Maryland's requirement of a 'good and substantial reason' in Md. Public Safety Code Ann §5-306 for issuance of a handgun permit is "insufficiently tailored to the State's interest in public safety and crime prevention." [Well. That’s one take on, “A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.]

    However, on March 30, 2012, Judge Legg issued two further orders: first, he made it clear that the effect of his March 2 Memorandum and Order is intended to enjoin the State Police from enforcing the "good and substantial reason" provision in §5-306. Second, he stayed the effect of his injunction. The judge's decision to issue a stay means that the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted by the Maryland General Assembly including the "good and substantial reason" requirement. [The MSP is actually required to uphold the law and the constitution. The MSP can and should immediately reinterpret G&S] As of this date, we do not know how long the stay will be in effect. The Attorney General's Office has appealed the judge's decision and the Fourth Circuit will hear the case. We do not have any information on when the case will be heard or when a
    decision will be made by the appellate court. [Incredibly, it seems like MSP intends to ignore Legg’s decision any way possible until the Appeals Court acts]

    You have recently submitted a permit application in which you have not provided any representation or evidence that you have a good and substantial reason to wear, carry or transport a handgun.[That’s just false in my case] Therefore, rather than processing your application and denying it on that basis, we are retuning your application and fee to you. You have two options: you can resubmit your application and provide a good and substantial reason for your permit request and the State Police will process it as we have always done. Or you can decide that you will not apply for a pemit at this time, but instead will wait for a ruling from the appellate court.

    Should you have questions that have not been addressed above or need additional infom1ation, please contact the Maryland State Police Handgun Permit Unit at licensing@mdsp.org. The commander of the Handgun Pem1it Unit may also be reached by mail at 1111 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, Maryland 21208, or by telephone at 410-653-4500. [The endless options phone tree designed to prevent you from reaching a live person].

    Sincerely,

    Lieutenant Jack McCauley, Commander
    Licensing Division
    Maryland State Police


    After seeing the terminology I don't believe they will process it if you submit it a second time unless you provide a good and substantial reading. I was thinking about that, how would they even know that the application was submitted a 2nd time. They wouldn't, BUT if an application is given with good and substantial reason they will process it.

    Yeah, Judge Legg needs to be notified about this. :tdown:
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    :thumbsup:
    If I were the OP, I would resubmit just for the facts that Inigoes stated above and to at least be able to go thru the appeal process. Does anybody know how long after you are denied it takes for them to hear an appeal?

    90 calendar days
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    As you may know... Judge Benson Everett Legg ... ruled that Maryland's requirement of a 'good and substantial reason'... for issuance of a handgun permit is "insufficiently tailored to the State's interest in public safety and crime prevention."


    That is a very cute reading of the judge's decision. I'm sure it will make a good impression on hizzoner.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    I know. That's what pisses me off. They apparently don't have a concrete process to deal with all these new applications. So..it seems to me some will get their money back and other won't. What's up with that!

    Apparently MSP has determined there are different conditions they can apply to the more recent batch of applications, based on the stay.

    I've even told a coworker to hold tight on his app until we know more, since it's starting to smell like there's a concerted effort in .gov to block (or at least hinder) the process.

    I'd just like to know who the chief skunk is...
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Can he do that? As it wasnt denied (or even acted on) I would think you cant get an appeal until there is a final judgment...just like in the courts

    Not trying to give legal advice here (my standard disclaimer), but I personally would regard this as a denial on g&S grounds (as stated in the letter). That they refused to call it a denial does not make anything less than a denial. That they refused to process it further because the absence of g&s, just makes clear that they are still applying g&s, hence the appeal. In any event, I would lose nothing by filing an administrative appeal with the 10 days specified by 5-312. When a stay is then denied, the administrative agency would have no choice to grant my appeal and order MSP to process the application. That they choose not to cash the check prior to denial is irrelevant -- they can cash it then. And I personally would demand an actual hearing.. The state has thus bought themselves a lot of cost by doing this too-clever-by-half, BS
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    So basically he could go into limbo with the rest of us if we were to know something about the case by mid summer.

    Western MD'rs and Southern MD'rs might have to file something at the 90 day mark. Because it looks like our local barracks doesn't what the extra head ache (or waste of time as they may see it), investigating on something that isn't concrete.
     

    dlmcbm

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 5, 2011
    1,207
    Sabillasville, Md.
    Was it nice of the MSP to flat out ignore the $$$ you paid for a livescan, time from work to get scanned, passport photos, and travel to a livescan location?

    The above is the equivilant, if not more than the MSP fee...

    I understand BUT they could have ignored your check to and just cashed it, stamped disapproved on you app and been done with it. Was this to save there 97% rating? who knows.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    They clearly state that it is a non-refundable fee.....

    I am not trying to be an a$$ here just tying to state the facts. All of this is what we all expect from the state of Maryland.

    Buuuuuut......... Clearly it actually is refundable, proven by the OP and his letter.

    I surely didn't expect to hear that certain people who were deemed to not have proven G&S would receive refunds while others wouldn't. Only possible way for them to KNOW he didn't prove G&S, was to review his app.
     

    csanc123

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 26, 2009
    4,155
    Montgomery County
    No no no..Don't care about the money. I care about CONSISTANCY. Oh wait. We are talking about MSP.

    They clearly state that it is a non-refundable fee.....

    I am not trying to be an a$$ here just tying to state the facts. All of this is what we all expect from the state of Maryland.
     

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