Anyone load their own personal defense rounds?

Pinecone · Nov 26, 2015

montoya32 said:
as long as it is not a "cop killer, Black Talon".

Funny thing was, when the Black Talon craziness hit, Black Talon was already an old design.

Funny thing is, the guy who designed the Black Talon bullet, went on to design a better performing bullet, that was available at the time of the Black Talon craziness.

It is the Golden Sabre bullet. But funny, no media cry over the more lethal than Black Talon bullets.

Pinecone · Nov 26, 2015

BTW, other than military rounds, factory ammo is not sealed in any way.

If you want to "seal" your reloads, you can buy the sealant, or use nail polish. Just a drop at the primer and bullet.

Same with "low flash" powder. Military uses this, but it is not necessarily a factor for commercial civilian ammo.

But I do not understand the OP contention that

I realize that for just practice/range/competition ammo you just dont see the savings by reloading,

Huh? Even buying cast bullets I save a bunch by reloading.

Mark75H · Nov 26, 2015

Pinecone said:
BTW, other than military rounds, factory ammo is not sealed in any way.

If you want to "seal" your reloads, you can buy the sealant, or use nail polish. Just a drop at the primer and bullet.

Same with "low flash" powder. Military uses this, but it is not necessarily a factor for commercial civilian ammo.

But I do not understand the OP contention that

Huh? Even buying cast bullets I save a bunch by reloading.

Isn't S&B usually sealed?

woodstock · Nov 26, 2015

montoya32 said:
Also, how can anyone tell you are shooting reloads? Do they disassemble your ammo?

if you are in a deadly force encounter, your remaining ammo will undergo forensics and if it found to be reloads, you could be in deep doo-doo.

as cypherpunk said "There are many reasons why, reliability, legal defense and liability are just a few."

as was suggested by andrew branca, spare no expense for FACTORY FRESH defense ammo.

BradMacc82 · Nov 26, 2015

To be perfectly (brutally) honest, what type of ammo you used could only become an issue IF you survive the incident in the first place.

Magnumite · Nov 26, 2015

I've pulled factory civilian ammo and sealer was on it. Many rounds have readily idenifiable sealer on the primer. Sealer affects bullet pull weight and setback. Unless something has changed...

alucard0822 · Nov 26, 2015

Magnumite said:
I've pulled factory civilian ammo and sealer was on it. Many rounds have readily idenifiable sealer on the primer. Sealer affects bullet pull weight and setback. Unless something has changed...

Yes, seen clear sealer more often than not on name brand defensive ammo, usually applied in the case mouth and primer pocket, so it's not as obvious as colored military sealer. Most don't use off the shelf powder formulations, and use flash inhibitors, shoot enough at dusk and it's fairly obvious.

Name Taken · Nov 26, 2015

This stuff is laughable.

Not one person has presented any case law to support any of these claims.

There are a few cases where a civil attorney suing on behalf of the wounded or killed decided to throw that rubbage at the wall and see if it would stick.

It hasn't.

If the force is justified it is justified. Doesn't matter if it's a 9mm, .45. reloaded, a competition Glock, a flame thrower, a kitchen knife, sword, ice pick, shoe lace, battery acid or any other gruesome thing your mind can come up with it.

If the force is justified there hasn't been a single case which created a legal precedent for any of these claims about reloads or altered firearms.

Where does it stop? If you didn't use a .22 did you mean to kill him more? How about a 9mm 115 grain compared to a 147 grain? Are you going to get convicted because you had a .45 instead of a .40? How about a 5 inch barrel compared to a 3.4 where your "lethal bullet" would gain velocity and become more lethal?

It's just a silly comment used by folks who make money off of people reading their blogs, going to their schools, and clicking on their web sites.

BigT5g · Nov 26, 2015

Pinecone said:
BTW, other than military rounds, factory ammo is not sealed in any way.

If you want to "seal" your reloads, you can buy the sealant, or use nail polish. Just a drop at the primer and bullet.

Same with "low flash" powder. Military uses this, but it is not necessarily a factor for commercial civilian ammo.

But I do not understand the OP contention that

Huh? Even buying cast bullets I save a bunch by reloading.

I'm glad you are seeing good savings.
I think you can see savings on calibers like .38spl/.357mag, but the 3 or 4 cents a round I save on 9mm doesn't make it necessarily worth my time. Right now I only load for competition. For practice and classes I buy the WWB 200rnd bulk packs at Walmart for $48.
Maybe if I had a progressive press things would be different, but I don't have time to sit at my turret press for hours to get the amount of ammo I need.

BigT5g · Nov 26, 2015

Name Taken said:
This stuff is laughable.

Not one person has presented any case law to support any of these claims.

There are a few cases where a civil attorney suing on behalf of the wounded or killed decided to throw that rubbage at the wall and see if it would stick.

It hasn't.

If the force is justified it is justified. Doesn't matter if it's a 9mm, .45. reloaded, a competition Glock, a flame thrower, a kitchen knife, sword, ice pick, shoe lace, battery acid or any other gruesome thing your mind can come up with it.

If the force is justified there hasn't been a single case which created a legal precedent for any of these claims about reloads or altered firearms.

Where does it stop? If you didn't use a .22 did you mean to kill him more? How about a 9mm 115 grain compared to a 147 grain? Are you going to get convicted because you had a .45 instead of a .40? How about a 5 inch barrel compared to a 3.4 where your "lethal bullet" would gain velocity and become more lethal?

It's just a silly comment used by folks who make money off of people reading their blogs, going to their schools, and clicking on their web sites.

Hmm. This argument seems to hold up. Anyone have anything other than an opinion to offer on this point? Can anyone who believes that ammo, and gun config will screw you in court site a particular case where this has happened?

Biff_N · Nov 26, 2015

Armadillofz1 said:
I stopped carrying black talons for that reason.

Aren't the Winchester Ranger LE rounds the same but without the evil black coating?

CypherPunk · Nov 27, 2015

BigT5g said:
Hmm. This argument seems to hold up. Anyone have anything other than an opinion to offer on this point? Can anyone who believes that ammo, and gun config will screw you in court site a particular case where this has happened?

Would you rather face a grandstanding, ambulance chasing, race hustling civil attorney with a factory spec trigger and the same ammo as your county police,

or home made, hot loads, cop killer projectiles with a home made 3lb hare trigger job?

Come on. Use some common sense.

Also, consider the burden of evidence in a criminal vs a negligence suit.

Pinecone · Nov 27, 2015

Mark75H said:
Isn't S&B usually sealed?

S&B is mainly a military ammunition manufacturer.

So they might be sealed. Like some Federal 5.56 is basically military ammo.

But MOST civilian ammo is not sealed.

Pinecone · Nov 27, 2015

BigT5g said:
I'm glad you are seeing good savings.
I think you can see savings on calibers like .38spl/.357mag, but the 3 or 4 cents a round I save on 9mm doesn't make it necessarily worth my time. Right now I only load for competition. For practice and classes I buy the WWB 200rnd bulk packs at Walmart for $48.
Maybe if I had a progressive press things would be different, but I don't have time to sit at my turret press for hours to get the amount of ammo I need.

200 rounds for $48 = 24 cents each

Reloading:

Bullets (Missouri cast 124 gr) = 6.4 cents
Primer (S&B from Cabelas) = 4.2 cents
Powder (5 grain WSF from Cabelas) = 1.785 cents

So 12.385 cents per round, excluding brass.

Straight wall pistol brass lasts a LOT of reloadings. But even buying new brass and using it 10 times, the cost is 1.899 cents, so a total of 14.284. And there is PLENTY of range pick up 9mm around. I have never had to buy 9mm brass, and seldom buy .45 ACP brass (which I shoot more).

That is a savings of 9.716 cents per round. So 1000 rounds (a typical loading session for me), that is $97.16 in my pocket. With range pickup brass, you are making $116.15.

That works for me. If you are looking at paying for your time, maybe not (without a progressive), but I find reloading relaxing and a way to get away from the daily stresses. With a progressive press, that 1000 rounds takes about a hour, so I am making GOOD money reloading.

BTW, I used all IN STOCK and available prices. Shopping around, you can find lower prices.

And there is PLENTY of range pick up 9mm around. I have never had to buy 9mm brass, and seldom buy .45 ACP brass (which I shoot more).

Pinecone · Nov 27, 2015

BigT5g said:
Hmm. This argument seems to hold up. Anyone have anything other than an opinion to offer on this point? Can anyone who believes that ammo, and gun config will screw you in court site a particular case where this has happened?

What is the benefit of not using factory SD ammo? Why take ANY chance of having to deal with this?

I don't shoot much factory SD ammo. Just enough to retain a feel and to rotate my stock.

Pinecone · Nov 27, 2015

CypherPunk said:
Wwith a home made 3lb hare trigger job?

Hare trigger?

Like this:

smokey · Nov 27, 2015

CypherPunk said:
Would you rather face a grandstanding, ambulance chasing, race hustling civil attorney with a factory spec trigger and the same ammo as your county police,

or home made, hot loads, cop killer projectiles with a home made 3lb hare trigger job?

Come on. Use some common sense.

Also, consider the burden of evidence in a criminal vs a negligence suit.

With how many defensive shoots there are every year, this should be easily demonstrable if it's actually a factor. Cite any case to support the argument, or stop spreading false information.

I don't want to cause undue harm with extra deadly reloaded handgun ammunition, so I just use factory 5.56 for home defense....it's much more humane in using up to lethal force when any shot is legally justified.

smokey · Nov 27, 2015

alucard0822 said:
Yes, seen clear sealer more often than not on name brand defensive ammo, usually applied in the case mouth and primer pocket, so it's not as obvious as colored military sealer. Most don't use off the shelf powder formulations, and use flash inhibitors, shoot enough at dusk and it's fairly obvious.

Yup. Seems less common with smaller manufacturers though. A while back I rounded up loose cartridges as part of babyproofing. I had a box full of random pdx1, gold dots, critical defense, critical duty, buffalo bore, hsts, golden sabres, and random fmj. The bulk fmj had little recoil, but a big flash. The defensive stuff from big manufacturers all had noticeably less flash and worked great. 147 loads seemed quieter with less recoil than 124+p loads. Critical defense has similar recoil to fmj. The Buffalo bore +p+ xtp was the only ammo to just not function. Being 6 years old, and having had some gun oil from around the breech contact the base, not having a sealed primer killed the primer. I gave the Buffalo bore (about 6 cartridges) 3 or 4 whacks with the m&p9c, but they never lit off.

For legal stuff, the forensics that come in to play are if distance is essential in proving a good shoot. Forensic people need enough ammo to recreate various distances in respect to powder burn/debris. Factory stuff is made in lots and is readily obtainable. Handloads arent, unless you can prove similar loads with accurate recordkeeping. If no other evidence clears you and you need ballistics to prove distance, then factory can be better for you.

alucard0822 · Nov 27, 2015

smokey0118 said:
Yup. Seems less common with smaller manufacturers though. A while back I rounded up loose cartridges as part of babyproofing. I had a box full of random pdx1, gold dots, critical defense, critical duty, buffalo bore, hsts, golden sabres, and random fmj. The bulk fmj had little recoil, but a big flash. The defensive stuff from big manufacturers all had noticeably less flash and worked great. 147 loads seemed quieter with less recoil than 124+p loads. Critical defense has similar recoil to fmj. The Buffalo bore +p+ xtp was the only ammo to just not function. Being 6 years old, and having had some gun oil from around the breech contact the base, not having a sealed primer killed the primer. I gave the Buffalo bore (about 6 cartridges) 3 or 4 whacks with the m&p9c, but they never lit off.

For legal stuff, the forensics that come in to play are if distance is essential in proving a good shoot. Forensic people need enough ammo to recreate various distances in respect to powder burn/debris. Factory stuff is made in lots and is readily obtainable. Handloads arent, unless you can prove similar loads with accurate recordkeeping. If no other evidence clears you and you need ballistics to prove distance, then factory can be better for you.

The main case where this played out was NJ vs Daniel Bias, not a defensive shooting case, and really the only good example I know of where lack of ballistics evidence earned 2 convictions before a 3rd trial acquitted him. Basically crazy wife commits suicide with his revolver and light HANDLOADS(reloaded from +p headstamp brass) leaving little GSR. He is tried for murder, police test FACTORY +p ammo, claim the gun had to be at least 3 feet away to leave the amount of GSR found during the autopsy. Their winning argument was that it was impossible for her to pull the trigger, husband had to do it, the GSR and ballistics was central to the case. To counter this, his lawyer basically asked Bias for the recipe AFTER he was charged, then had those loads tested, found a GSR pattern matching a muzzle distance within a foot, but evidence was thrown out because it basically took Bias's word for what load was used. Point being if any number of things were different, he had a larger sample, detailed reload notes, factory ammo, or a better lawyer, probably wouldn't have taken 3 trials to be released.

There is also the fact it was one case out of thousands, it did not involve self defense, and lacked the huge degree of protection a verifiable self defense claim provides the accused. I don't know of ANY case where a person was convicted due to ANY firearm or ammo attribute(HP, trigger job, reloads) when an affirmative defense was used, especially now that the trend for Burden of proof has been shifted further and further to the prosecution through SYG/Castle legislation and an ever increasing number of case law examples.

BigT5g · Nov 27, 2015

alucard0822 said:
The main case where this played out was NJ vs Daniel Bias, not a defensive shooting case, and really the only good example I know of where lack of ballistics evidence earned 2 convictions before a 3rd trial acquitted him. Basically crazy wife commits suicide with his revolver and light HANDLOADS(reloaded from +p headstamp brass) leaving little GSR. He is tried for murder, police test FACTORY +p ammo, claim the gun had to be at least 3 feet away to leave the amount of GSR found during the autopsy. Their winning argument was that it was impossible for her to pull the trigger, husband had to do it, the GSR and ballistics was central to the case. To counter this, his lawyer basically asked Bias for the recipe AFTER he was charged, then had those loads tested, found a GSR pattern matching a muzzle distance within a foot, but evidence was thrown out because it basically took Bias's word for what load was used. Point being if any number of things were different, he had a larger sample, detailed reload notes, factory ammo, or a better lawyer, probably wouldn't have taken 3 trials to be released.

There is also the fact it was one case out of thousands, it did not involve self defense, and lacked the huge degree of protection a verifiable self defense claim provides the accused. I don't know of ANY case where a person was convicted due to ANY firearm or ammo attribute(HP, trigger job, reloads) when an affirmative defense was used, especially now that the trend for Burden of proof has been shifted further and further to the prosecution through SYG/Castle legislation and an ever increasing number of case law examples.

Informed and informative post. Thank you.

Anyone load their own personal defense rounds?

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