Reduced load 45acp

Melnic · Oct 5, 2015

So, I have a 45 1911 relic.
I want to make some reduced loads to baby it.

What I had already before buying the gun is:
Mastercast 200gr 45 LRN
power pistol (was planning to trade this though)
W231
Unique

I expect I need to buy a lighter spring for it?
I was first going to see how light of a load I can reliably cycle it and go from there.
Any issues with this gun and the LRN cast bullets?
Mastercast has the lube rings.

frogman68 · Oct 5, 2015

I have a Sistema 1927

Found it likes 4.2 grains of tite group behind a 230 grain FMJ

Pistol power (seem dirty to me) was 7 grains with the same bullet I gave up on it and sticking with tite group

Clippers69 · Oct 5, 2015

45 cap loads

I us WST at 4.4 for 230 Len and 4.7 for 200 swc. I do not use hard cast as they run about 800 or so. They still cycle.

Ian · Oct 5, 2015

4.9 Win 231 and 200g lead makes a pretty decent softball load.

fogman · Oct 5, 2015

I'm running 5.2gr of Red Dot behind a 200gr SWC. Load data I have shows you can go down to 4.0gr w/ Red Dot. Lyman Reloading Handbook (45th edition) shows Unique at 5.0gr-7.2gr behind a 200gr cast bullet. The data is old so use with caution.

ken792 · Oct 5, 2015

When I had my Sistema, I'd run 3.1gr of Titewad (not Titegroup) and a cast 230gr slug (Missouri Bullet Softball!). It was probably running at 690 FPS or something like that. I could see the bullet slowly traveling downrange in a distinct arc even in imperfect light. The recoil was stupidly gentle.

Melnic · Oct 5, 2015

ken792 said:
When I had my Sistema, I'd run 3.1gr of Titewad (not Titegroup) and a cast 230gr slug (Missouri Bullet Softball!). It was probably running at 690 FPS or something like that. I could see the bullet slowly traveling downrange in a distinct arc even in imperfect light. The recoil was stupidly gentle.

Question to you and others, did you run a lighter spring?

Magnumite · Oct 5, 2015

I use 200 grain SWC or RNFP with 4.2 to 4.4 grains of Bullseye. This gives 725 to 750 fps and is soft shooting enough to keep your gun ticking. It may even run with a 16 pound recoil spring. If not, go to a 14 pounder and never look back.

ken792 · Oct 5, 2015

Melnic said:
Question to you and others, did you run a lighter spring?

It actually cycled fine with a brand new Wolff 16lb (factory strength) spring. A friend of mine with a Sistema accidentally got a 18lb spring for his, and my light loads ran fine in his too.

The original spring in the Sistema was severely worn and probably was 12lb. I actually had issues cycling since the slide would not have enough velocity on the return to reliably feed the last cartridge out of modern 1911 mags. The cartridges would jump forward as they left the feed lips and end up in front of the extractor, keeping the slide from going into battery. Now old GI mags with the long, tapered feed lips fed just fine with such a light spring. The fed lips held the round long enough for it to slide up the breech face and under the extractor.

frogman68 · Oct 6, 2015

Melnic said:
Question to you and others, did you run a lighter spring?

I am running the factory spring with no issues

byf43 · Oct 6, 2015

Melnic said:
So, I have a 45 1911 relic.
I want to make some reduced loads to baby it.

What I had already before buying the gun is:
Mastercast 200gr 45 LRN
power pistol (was planning to trade this though)
W231
Unique

I expect I need to buy a lighter spring for it?
I was first going to see how light of a load I can reliably cycle it and go from there.
Any issues with this gun and the LRN cast bullets?
Mastercast has the lube rings.

I shoot a 200 gr LSWC and 5.7 grains of W-231 through my Gold Cup NM.
I did put an 18.5 lb recoil spring in it.

It shoots 907 fps and is VERY accurate.

This is a 'softball' load and is very easy on the pistol.

Edited to add:

From a load manual put out by "All American Ammo" (bullet casters) -
Win 231 w/ 200 grain LSWC/RN

Minimum load: 5.0 grains.......................... 837 fps

Maximum load: 6.0 grains......................... 966 fps
Maximum energy at maximum load:................ 414 fpe

Blacksmith101 · Oct 7, 2015

If you want a really soft load you might want to try Trail Boss.

I was looking at a Hogdon Basic Reloading Manual and noticed some .45 ACP loads using IMR 4756 with fairly low pressures so I tried looking online for IMR powder data at the Hogdon Reloading Data Center (They make Hogdon, IMR, and Winchester powders):
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

I selected data for the .45 ACP, then the four lowest bullet weights, and IMR powder, and last all the powders listed. The results provided 23 load recipes which I then reviewed the starting load data for each for velocity and pressure. There are a number of powder and bullet combinations listed that would be considered mild in anyone's opinion but the outstanding winner was:

180 gr. LFP .452" dia. COL 1.140" Trail Boss 3.5 grs. velocity of 664 FPS and a pressure of 7,100 CUP

Take a look at the other data and other brands of powder for other reduced loads in a well known manufacturers published data and as always use caution especially when approaching either end of the bell curve. I have not tried this load and am just reporting the findings of my limited data search.

Edit: I just looked on their site for Winchester 231 and they list a load for a 200 gr cast LSWC with a velocity of 771 FPS and pressure of 11,000 CUP. Try the Alliant web site also.

Pinecone · Oct 7, 2015

byf43 said:
I shoot a 200 gr LSWC and 5.7 grains of W-231 through my Gold Cup NM.
I did put an 18.5 lb recoil spring in it.

It shoots 907 fps and is VERY accurate.

This is a 'softball' load and is very easy on the pistol.

That load makes Major for USPSA and IDPA competitions.

NOT a softball load.

230 gr LRN over 3.8 grains of Clays is one of the traditional softball loads.

byf43 · Oct 7, 2015

Pinecone said:
That load makes Major for USPSA and IDPA competitions.

NOT a softball load.

230 gr LRN over 3.8 grains of Clays is one of the traditional softball loads.

That load is not a hardball load, at all. (Even though velocity x bullet weight, blah, blah, blah, says it is.) I'm well aware that it makes major.

AFAIAC, 950 fps is a hardball load.

I've used that load quite a bit (in fact, it's the ONLY load I use in my GC NM).
Very mild. Easy on the gun.

My kids (when they were small) shot hundreds of these.

sgt23preston · Oct 7, 2015

Here you go...

45ACP x 200 grain LRN...

5.0 grains of Win 231...

Crimp brass to .470 / .469 Dia (do not go below .469)...

I do NOT have an Overall Length for the LRN...

Ref only, I loaded my 45 x 200 Gr SWC to 1.250 OAL...

This is a very accurate load with enough power to cycle any 1911...

BTW this load will work perfectly with the factory installed 1911 spring...

Magnumite · Oct 7, 2015

byf43 said:
That load is not a hardball load, at all. (Even though velocity x bullet weight, blah, blah, blah, says it is.) I'm well aware that it makes major.

AFAIAC, 950 fps is a hardball load.

I've used that load quite a bit (in fact, it's the ONLY load I use in my GC NM).
Very mild. Easy on the gun.

My kids (when they were small) shot hundreds of these.

There is a big name bullseye smith who told me 775 fps with 200 grain bullet was not a soft ball load. Call it what you like, for you it may be soft, but referring to it as a soft ball load is misleading. It may be down loaded from old major (just a little bit away) but not soft.

Service hardball load of a 230 grain bullet at a nominal 830 fps gives a power factor of 190.9. The 200 grain at 907 fps is a hardball load at a power factor of 181.4, which would be a 230 grain bullet at 790 fps, and still easily makes major (165) at any shooting match. It is four points shy of the old major power factor of 185.

A typical softball load which shoots a 200 grain bullet @ 725 fps give a power factor of 145. I use this for steel in 45 ACP so I know it is a soft shooting load. It also notably anemic in a pin match since 45 ACP is major caliber. As a comparison, the 9mm 115 grain @ 1200 fps yields a PF of 138 with snappier slide reciprocation.

Since a heavier bullet shoots softer than a lighter bullet when both are loaded to equivalent power factors, I'll go out on the limb and say the 230@830 fps ball load above is probably softer shooting than the 200@907 fps load simply because of the slide speed.

byf43 · Oct 7, 2015

Magnumite said:
There is a big name bullseye smith who told me 775 fps with 200 grain bullet was not a soft ball load. Call it what you like, for you it may be soft, but referring to it as a soft ball load is misleading. It may be down loaded from old major (just a little bit away) but not soft.

Service hardball load of a 230 grain bullet at a nominal 830 fps gives a power factor of 190.9. The 200 grain at 907 fps is a hardball load at a power factor of 181.4, which would be a 230 grain bullet at 790 fps, and still easily makes major (165) at any shooting match. It is four points shy of the old major power factor of 185.

A typical softball load which shoots a 200 grain bullet @ 725 fps give a power factor of 145. I use this for steel in 45 ACP so I know it is a soft shooting load. It also notably anemic in a pin match since 45 ACP is major caliber. As a comparison, the 9mm 115 grain @ 1200 fps yields a PF of 138 with snappier slide reciprocation.

Since a heavier bullet shoots softer than a lighter bullet when both are loaded to equivalent power factors, I'll go out on the limb and say the 230@830 fps ball load above is probably softer shooting than the 200@907 fps load simply because of the slide speed.

I stand corrected. :thumbsup:

Magnumite · Oct 7, 2015

If it works, do it. I actually like your load, it has a good bit going for it. What is actually reveaked from this is how good a combination reloading, the 45 ACP and the 1911 really is! :thumbsup:

Pinecone · Oct 8, 2015

byf43 said:
That load is not a hardball load, at all. (Even though velocity x bullet weight, blah, blah, blah, says it is.) I'm well aware that it makes major.

AFAIAC, 950 fps is a hardball load.

I've used that load quite a bit (in fact, it's the ONLY load I use in my GC NM).
Very mild. Easy on the gun.

My kids (when they were small) shot hundreds of these.

For reference, Federal Gold Medal Match .45 ACP target load is a 185 grain bullet at 780 FPS.

noylj · Oct 8, 2015

Most relics are unfit and unsafe to shoot--that what makes them relics.
A 1911 in good shape will handle several tens of thousands of "hardball" loads and probably never have any problems with light target loads. I have somewhere north of 20,000 rounds through the Colt Gold Cup I purchased back around 1975 and that gun is as tight and accurate as the day I bought it (except the trigger is probably better now). It has never been abused, but it saw several seasons of IPSC shooting with about 6.0gn of Unique.
My recommendation is not to ASSUME a load but to work it up or down from the start load.
All I shoot in my .45 Autos nowadays are 200gn L-SWC bullets (cast, swaged, and coated varieties) and 4.6-5.0 231/HP38 (depending on bullet).
I would load for the spring in the gun. You'll be amazed at the range of loads that will cycle a 1911. That light load with the standard spring will reduce the slide battering better than a light load and light spring, I would expect.
Not my business, but—If you are that worried about your relic, don't think of shooting it at all. Maybe you should keep it safe and get a gun you are willing to shoot often.

Reduced load 45acp

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