PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

Speaker2Wolves · Apr 16, 2012

Inigoes said:
The MSP sent a rejection letter which is the same as a denial letter.

Only difference is the MSP didn't keep the 75 dollars.

Two things.

One, keeping the money would mean you have standing because you're harmed in a very real way.

Two, the rejection letters say you can re-apply both if you have proof of G&S reasons or should the question at issue eventually be resolved.

In other words, they are essentially saying that if you resubmit without the required reasons you will be granted a permit should the requirement not stand. Essentially, they are asking to be held harmless until the matter is resolved one way or the other. That is, they aren't granting permits because of the requirement, but neither are they denying permits based on the requirements.

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Speaker2Wolves said:
Two things.

One, keeping the money would mean you have standing because you're harmed in a very real way.

Two, the rejection letters say you can re-apply both if you have proof of G&S reasons or should the question at issue eventually be resolved.

In other words, they are essentially saying that if you resubmit without the required reasons you will be granted a permit should the requirement not stand. Essentially, they are asking to be held harmless until the matter is resolved one way or the other. That is, they aren't granting permits, but neither are they denying permits based on the requirements either.

What's the difference paying $75 to the MSP, or $55 to CJIS for the permit prints?

You could argue, you have standing because of the CJIS receipt.

Speaker2Wolves · Apr 16, 2012

Inigoes said:
What's the difference paying $75 to the MSP, or $55 to CJIS for the permit prints?

Dunno. Maybe one is for the application, the other is not? That is, the CJIS is useful for more than carry permits?

Again, I'm not an attorney and could be barking up the wrong tree here.

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Speaker2Wolves said:
Dunno. Maybe one is for the application, the other is not? That is, the CJIS is useful for more than carry permits?

Again, I'm not an attorney and could be barking up the wrong tree here.

The CJIS prints have a limited lifetime. As well is different fees associated for the type of fingerprints

cad68m_m · Apr 16, 2012

I am very bitter that I would have been in the cashed check waiting for processing group if I hadn't made an appointment at Waldorf DMV for Livescan on April 3.

FNH High Power · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
Also is there some kind of list that you can get from the MSP that exactly spells out what a G&S is? Or is whatever they want it to be that given day?

I think what they go by is the reasoning stated in COMAR, and (I believe) on the instructions on the application. Security guard, special police, large sums of money to be deposited, threats on your life, those sorts of things. That also included, or rather includes during the stay, G&S reason substantiated by sworn documentation. I understand doctors (why?), pharmacists, and couriers for pharmaceutical companies (obviously for being a drug supply target) are G&S reasons, maybe--depending on the "way it's seen" by the investigating licensing officer.

One question I've always had is, if I have a permit to carry during times that I am transferring large sums of cash for deposit, what do I do with the firearm after i deliver the money to the bank? Can I LEGALLY walk out of the bank with my pistol, get in my car and drive home? I'd be willing to bet that one would get you tossed in a patrol car if the officer had an axe to grind.

...sorry for aiding and abetting the hijacking of the thread I started. Some of this is pertinent to this discussion, but some is obviously not. I guess it was just convenient to keep the current discussionS in the same place.

frdfandc · Apr 16, 2012

There is a post on Delegate Smigiel's Facebook page regarding this. Someone posted up that their application was RETURNED with a letter and a non-cashed check.

I gave them a little bit of information about what is going on. Including coming and visiting here and joining MSI and SAF.

https://www.facebook.com/mikesmigiel/posts/10150753361517357

Merlin · Apr 17, 2012

mr h said:
I've mentioned many times that the "interested" people in Maryland (and MDS/MSI are not near all of them) amount to maybe 1/3 of all shooters/hunters/collectors in the state. Our issues here are not on the radar of most folks.

Take the interest in the past couple months (weeks, especially), and multiply it by 4 or 5... If the rest of the gun owners in MD can be activated, we win hands-down.

Multiply that interest by another 2, and IMO you change the whole state on several fronts.

It would be great if somehow the MDS web site could be advertizes at the local gun shops. But first and foremost I have been to a few IP location and when their, unless you knew ahead of time that they were connected to MDS you would have never known they were an IP or a member of the MDS website.

If nothing else, the IP should actively let their customers know about the MDS website.

dlmcbm · Apr 17, 2012

iSHOOT said:
If i know my state at all, they'll take every dime from you they can. So by returning applications and money saying "the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted..." just smells like bs. Either they have no choice but to deny the applications and cash your checks...OR they have to obey the ruling and grant the requests... I just cant understand how not taking applications is legal. Is this the new way they control it?

It is illegal
29.03.02.03

.03 Investigation of Applicant.
Upon receipt of the application and the supporting material described, the Secretary shall cause an investigation of the applicant to be conducted for the purpose of determining whether the applicant possesses the qualifications for a permit as required by Public Safety Article, §5-306, Annotated Code of Maryland.

they are not doing the investigation. If they call not having G&S an investigation then they should have cashed the check and you should be able to appeal it. and it should count against them for approval rating.

Inigoes said:
The MSP sent a rejection letter which is the same as a denial letter.

Only difference is the MSP didn't keep the 75 dollars.

No because there is no record (on there part) that you ever applied so it don't hurt there 97% approval rating.

LCPIWB · Apr 17, 2012

Speaker2Wolves said:
Two things.

One, keeping the money would mean you have standing because you're harmed in a very real way.

Two, the rejection letters say you can re-apply both if you have proof of G&S reasons or should the question at issue eventually be resolved.

In other words, they are essentially saying that if you resubmit without the required reasons you will be granted a permit should the requirement not stand. Essentially, they are asking to be held harmless until the matter is resolved one way or the other. That is, they aren't granting permits because of the requirement, but neither are they denying permits based on the requirements.

Quick quiz for you.

If you are not approved, you are______?

Get you hands off the MSP kool-aid jug, we don't need you on their team.

gmhowell · Apr 17, 2012

LCPIWB said:
Get you hands off the MSP kool-aid jug, we don't need you on their team.

It doesn't look like he is, rather he is trying to present what the MSP thinking/argument would likely be.

Inigoes · Apr 17, 2012

dlmcbm said:
No because there is no record (on there part) that you ever applied so it don't hurt there 97% approval rating.

That's a partial truth.

The MSP can play the ignorance game.

A freedom of information act against CJIS will show the number of handgun applications since March 19th.

sbmike · Apr 17, 2012

dlmcbm said:
No because there is no record (on there part) that you ever applied so it don't hurt there 97% approval rating.

I've seen this stated in other posts on this thread, but how can there be no record when they the MSP sends you a letter explaining why your application is being returned to you? I could see it if they simply returned your application unopened (which would make no sense at all) but that's not how they are doing it. Am I missing something?

Merlin · Apr 17, 2012

Inigoes said:
That's a partial truth.

The MSP can play the ignorance game.

A freedom of information act against CJIS will show the number of handgun applications since March 19th.

most likely not if they are just dropping the app back in the mail after just reading 9a with a friendly note and your check. I bet it's all about that check. I bet when that check is deposited that is what starts an official paper trail. I think when they just send the app back including the check it is unofficial act of them just looking out for you so you don't waist your money.

win win for them. We can assume that are swamped at this time with the app's/checks they did deposit. This is an easy way to clear off their desks.

Inigoes · Apr 17, 2012

Merlin said:
most likely not if they are just dropping the app back in the mail after just reading 9a with a friendly note and your check. I bet it's all about that check. I bet when that check is deposited that is what starts an official paper trail. I think when they just send the app back including the check it is unofficial act of them just looking out for you so you don't waist your money.

win win for them. We can assume that are swamped at this time with the app's/checks they did deposit. This is an easy way to clear off their desks.

Not quite a win for the MSP, the CJIS will be reporting a clean brackground on the applicant (which the MSP has no record of).

This has the potential of confusing the MSP even more. The paper trail actually starts with CJIS and not the MSP anymore...

Merlin · Apr 17, 2012

Inigoes said:
Not quite a win for the MSP, the CJIS will be reporting a clean brackground on the applicant (which the MSP has no record of).

This has the potential of confusing the MSP even more. The paper trail actually starts with CJIS and not the MSP anymore...

Well yes and no. If/when people reapply, they will have to start from scratch all over again. When we/they reapply and depending on the outcome of all the appeals we will either get ccw's or not.

The MSP will bot get any punishment because they sent a few apps back that include the checks. The most that will happen is the courts will just tell them to stop doing that. And that's only in the long run that courts go our way.

This is not over until it's over and it still can go back to the old way.

Inigoes · Apr 17, 2012

Merlin said:
Well yes and no. If/when people reapply, they will have to start from scratch all over again. When we/they reapply and depending on the outcome of all the appeals we will either get ccw's or not.

The MSP will bot get any punishment because they sent a few apps back that include the checks. The most that will happen is the courts will just tell them to stop doing that. And that's only in the long run that courts go our way.

This is not over until it's over and it still can go back to the old way.

The only way for the MSP to plead pure ignorance, is to go back to fingerprint cards.

Before the MSP was the sole organization responsible, they decided to farmout the fingerprints to CJIS to alleviate pre-processing.

The MSP will have a hard time going back to the pre-3/19 behavior of ignorance...

The next 6 weeks will be interesting to say the least

Merlin · Apr 17, 2012

Inigoes said:
The only way for the MSP to plead pure ignorance, is to go back to fingerprint cards.

Before the MSP was the sole organization responsible, they decided to farmout the fingerprints to CJIS to alleviate pre-processing.

The MSP will have a hard time going back to the pre-3/19 behavior of ignorance...

The next 6 weeks will be interesting to say the least

Agreed. The next 6 weeks will be interesting to say the least. but at the end of the day do you think the MSP will get anything more then the courts telling them that they should have handled that differently and them saying OK?

Inigoes · Apr 17, 2012

Merlin said:
Agreed. The next 6 weeks will be interesting to say the least. but at the end of the day do you think the MSP will get anything more then the courts telling them that they should have handled that differently and them saying OK?

I'm guessing the court will lift the temporary stay. The MSP thumbed their nose at the court, after the AG said they would abide by the courts ruling.

This would allow the MSP to still sit on the applications for a little while, but force the MSP to accept them.

Merlin · Apr 17, 2012

Inigoes said:
I'm guessing the court will lift the temporary stay. The MSP thumbed their nose at the court, after the AG said they would abide by the courts ruling.

This would allow the MSP to still sit on the applications for a little while, but force the MSP to accept them.

but I do not understand all of the steps this will take between this stay until the end of May and what comes next as far as the 4th giving them another stay until the appeal is complete.

I'm guessing the MSP could end up using G&S all the way up until the end of the appeal with the 4th and that could last another year or more. Someone said 2014.

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