Engage to sell so called "smart gun"

RoadDawg · May 2, 2014

Andy, when I first read about this, I had already learned of what I'll just call the "New Jersey Factor"... I spouted off and a few others have also, I tried to delete the post but the thread is locked.

I will own what I said. But with the caveat that none of it is personal nor is it in anyway intended as a threat. Threats are chicken shit cowardly things from folks who need to STFU.

I've never been in your store as I don't frequent that area. My apologies for any offense that can be found in my post. I have family living in New Jersey so the NJF hits home.

Best wishes and may God help you to get though this ordeal unscathed.

RD

Irish64 · May 2, 2014

TopShelf said:
It sounds like a few are upset about the situation with gun rights laws, and fear it will get worse. For those in that boat, and I believe that is nearly 100% of you, I have some good news - this is an election year here in MD! If you would like laws to change in favor of gun rights, I recommend getting up to speed on the political process, elections, candidates, etc., and doing what you can to support the candidates who support gun rights

This!

I ordered sights for my pistol today, planning on paying Engage to swap them out soon.

Minuteman · May 2, 2014

Andy, I don't think we've ever met personally, but I have met some of your crew, we have mutual friends/associates; and I know your reputation for supporting us (2A Rights). I didn't know all this was going on, until I stumbled upon your video a few minutes ago. Thanks for explaining, not that you had too, but I believe you meant no harm, and accepting all responsibility even if it ends up a bad move; speaks volumes about your character.

Bloomberg has launched another offensive against us, you could have been a victim of some of his hired snakes; could be some Jersey pro gun hard liners, who knows, I wouldn't sweat it.

Whatever you do, or don't do will be the focus of some attention for a while; this could end up being a very good thing for all of us. I like the saying, life isn't about what happens to you, it's about how you react to it.

Thanks for getting some guns on the roster, doing more than many gun dealers to help fight for our rights, and keeping it real. I'd be interested in buying an Engage tshirt, and someday joining you over a beer.

RoadDawg · May 2, 2014

Minuteman said:
Andy, I don't think we've ever met personally, but I have met some of your crew, we have mutual friends/associates; and I know your reputation for supporting us (2A Rights). I didn't know all this was going on, until I stumbled upon your video a few minutes ago. Thanks for explaining, not that you had too, but I believe you meant no harm, and accepting all responsibility even if it ends up a bad move; speaks volumes about your character.

Bloomberg has launched another offensive against us, you could have been a victim of some of his hired snakes; could be some Jersey pro gun hard liners, who knows, I wouldn't sweat it.

Whatever you do, or don't do will be the focus of some attention for a while; this could end up being a very good thing for all of us. I like the saying, life isn't about what happens to you, it's about how you react to it.

Thanks for getting some guns on the roster, doing more than many gun dealers to help fight for our rights, and keeping it real. I'd be interested in buying an Engage tshirt, and someday joining you over a beer.

Hammer meet nail... I was also thinking the same thing about the "Bloomberg Snake" idea. If this is so... We need to mount a grass roots effort to insure that no LGS gets suckered into this. I think that the NRA really needs to focus on getting the NJF repealed so we can all breath easier.

Dogabutila · May 2, 2014

By the way Andy, you're fat and bald.

Also, in all honesty it would be better for us to trigger the law now then wait for this tech to be more widespread. Sell one, trigger the law. Don't sell anymore. Boom, de facto complete ban on firearms in new jersey. Law struck down. EZPZ. It's been pointed out that the VPC founder // board of directors guy has a FFL. You think that if they wanted the law triggered now they could do it? Of course they could. There's a reason they don't.

Some people are just really short sighted. You can't put the genie back into the bottle.

silver78 · May 2, 2014

I have mixed feelings about offering/supporting a "smart" gun since I believe the gun grabbers will try to force it on us if it's available. More expensive complicated guns means less gun owners which is their real goal.

I remember your testimony in Annapolis so I have no doubt about your overall intentions. Personally I lean against them but if you chose to offer one it's certainly your right to do so. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Norton · May 2, 2014

threads merged.

mopar92 · May 2, 2014

Can we move this to the water cooler? As SNI pointed out, this site has been cited in articles.

NavyATFP · May 2, 2014

I applaud you for looking at this from an advancement in safety features for those looking for them. Shame that the NJ legislature had set up laws like this but if they are basing their laws around what goes on in other states they are a mess anyway(yes that goes for our legislature to) and should be pushed out piece by piece.

As for this firearm, they might as well sell them since the government is going to implant RFID chips in all of us anyway. What you havent been watching the "alternative media" report on this for a few years now :lol2:

I haven't shopped in Engage but kept meaning to stop in and will surely do that this week if to do nothing more than make even a small purchase.

Business owners(including FFL's) have to find new items to attract customers to keep them viable as time moves on. It's just how business is done. It's a shame an item that could add one more person in to protecting their home and family will be vilified. I personally wouldn't buy them as I have no children in the house(and try as i might i cant get my dogs to figure out how to fire my M&P) nor do I think the technology behind this is far enough along yet to keep me safe and don;t even like my bedside firearm to have a thumb/grip/other safety built in because protecting yourself after waking up from a deep sleep is hard enough.

Andy, Do what you feel is best for your business and support the 2A as much as you can. Remember though how many from other states raked us across the coals with the passing of SB281 and told us we all should just pack up and move out of state. You have kept your shop going and supporting Maryland Shooters(and any from other states wanting your firearms) so you have done more than your share in this fight.

EL1227 · May 2, 2014

Guns Save Lives picked it up

Engage Armament said:
Im really sorry some people feel the way they do about us but that is their CHOICE and they're entitled to it.

I consider myself exceptionally pro-gun. I will defend that right with my life or by taking others. Its that simple for me. I consider gun rights my personal jihad, which is why you see many of the things we do. We consistently push the envelope here in MD and I am extremely confrontational with the powers the be. In fact, I know have to pose any of my questions to MSP in writing and they will respond via letter. Apparently my attitude is reviled there. Moreover, I dont know any other dealer that has been as active against SB281 than us although everyone has contributed greatly for our cause.

This comes down to just a few things for me. The foremost being is that we can get people who are on the fence regarding gun ownership to buy guns. As many of you know, when you take an anti-gunner shooting they almost invariably love it. Yesterday, Chris Hayes from MSNBC shot my UMP and loved it. We all know that he represents the most extreme left wing of our media. However, if we can get those guys behind guns it is in our favor. If we can get people who are on that fence to go out and shoot it will only be good for us. Isnt that what we are supposed to be about? Encouraging the natural right to keep and bear arms?

I cannot stand that progun people are calling for the prohibition of a firearm. It doesnt matter what it is. That is opposed to everything we stand for and our entire platform. We cannot acquiesce to the fear that some ******* politician would make this mandatory. Thats what we have the REAL guns for, to prevent that. We cannot compromise our values but we cannot bow down to fear either. What drives people talking about gun prohibition or boycotts is fear. It doesnt matter if its from the right or left.

Despite what is said by others who support this technology, there is only one application for it and that is the gun right fencesitter. In its present configuration it is not ready for law enforcement use. It most likely is not ready for self defense use BUT it could get the soccer mom crowd, the urban dweller, or the pinko lefty into guns. This would be a good thing.

Anyone is free to email me at andy@engagearmament.com or call the shop at 301-838-3151 to discuss if you want. Or come into the shop and talk to me.

I took the liberty of providing this posting as a direct quote comment on GunsSaveLives.com , less your email and phone number. As I noted at the end of my comment ... "Expertly said". There are two sides to every coin, lets hope that this one lands 'heads up'. :thumbsup:

Fishguy · May 2, 2014

iH8DemLibz said:
Let's approach this from another angle for a moment. I would like to address all the gun shops and those who were buying handguns back in 1998 or so. All you young folk can tune out for a while.

There was a product back then with the name of Safe-T-Lock or some such name. It was a grip that had a locking device inside the grip and a series of buttons on the outside of the grip. If memory serves me correctly, it was first being adapted to the 1911 frame.

Every single gun shop in Baltimore had this ill conceived abortion sitting on their counters as a display model for customers to finger and fondle.

This company was listed on the stock exchanges and it did very well for a while. It went from a penny stock to 6 bucks or so in a matter of hours after a mass killing took place. Buy low and sell high as they say.

Even with all that going for it, it failed in the end because American gun buyers simply refused to put gadgets and gimmicks on their handguns. Unlike today where it is perfectly acceptable to turn a 7 pound AR into a boat anchor.

This is just my tinfoil wearing black helicopters talking, but maybe Engage is smart for doing this. This is where it gets really good. Maybe by Engage offering to sell this technology, the public will see first hand how awful this product really and truly is. This would be incredibly sinister and devious on their part, but it may sound the death knell for this technology for once and for all.
I am now all in favor of Engage selling these guns to the American gun buying public.

I feel just like Obama. Evolving.

PS: Engage can PM me a wink if I'm right.

God I love tinfoil.

This is where I was thinking.

Wouldn't it be great if it turned out to be a huge failure before being written into law so that such real world failures can be used as an argument to be used against it.

teratos · May 2, 2014

whistlersmother said:
So which is it? On the one hand you say mandating this technology violates the Constitution while on the other you say "time to start buying handguns". It sounds like you have as much trust in the MGA as I do...

This I do know - the MGA will pass a law, even one that is unconstitutional, because they know it will be YEARS before it is over turned. They are buying time, during which the country could flop to anti-2A or a SCOTUS ruling overturning Heller. It is naive to think the MGA won't mandate this technology simply because of the threat that such a law is unconstitutional - after all, what does the MGA care about the Constitution - they passed SB281.

As for Engage selling the gun - I have no opinion. The shop will sell what it thinks can be sold for a profit.

The entire concept of a "safer" tool is absurd. This particular tool isn't supposed to be safe - its the user that's supposed to be safe.

Since when has the Constitution EVER stood in the way of the MGA? SB281 isn't Constitutional, yet it still passed, didn't it? I think we are on the same page.

Robert · May 2, 2014

ShallNotInfringe said:
FYI.

Maryland has a law in place that requires monitoring of developments, New Jersey has a law in place that forces implementation when it's available...

... it's not a sleeper law (yet) here in Maryland.

LEGISLATION

Maryland

Maryland law defines a “personalized handgun” as any handgun manufactured with technology incorporated into the design (1) allowing it to be fired only by its authorized user and (2) preventing any of its safety characteristics from being easily deactivated. The state Handgun Roster Board must review the status of personalized handgun technology and report its findings to the governor and the General Assembly annually (Md. Code Ann., Pub. Safety § 5-132).

As opposed to:

New Jersey

In 2002, New Jersey adopted a law to eventually require smart gun technology to be incorporated into all handguns sold in the state. New Jersey defines a “personalize handgun” as “[A] handgun which incorporates within its design, and as part of its original manufacture, technology which automatically limits its operational use and which cannot be readily deactivated, so that it may only be fired by an authorized or recognized user.”

Until the attorney general finds that personalized gun technology is available, he or she must report to the governor and the legislature every six months on the availability of personalized handguns for retail sales.

Twenty-three months after the attorney general finds that smart handguns are available for retail sale, the attorney general and the superintendent of state police must begin the process of promulgating a list of such handguns that may be sold in New Jersey. This process must be completed within six months.

Six months after the initial list of handguns is approved, it will be unlawful for any licensed manufacturer, wholesaler, or retail firearms dealer to transport into New Jersey, sell, expose for sale, possess with the intent of selling, assign, or otherwise transfer a handgun unless it is a personalized handgun (excluding antique handguns and handguns used by law enforcement or military officers) (N.J. Rev. Code §§ 2C:39-1, 2C:58-2.2 et seq.).

Come on SNI, you're not naive. You know exactly what our currently legislation would end up looking like.

ShallNotInfringe · May 2, 2014

Robert said:
Come on SNI, you're not naive. You know exactly what our currently legislation would end up looking like.

You did notice the "yet" in there, right?

Do you know what "yet" stands for? You're Eligible Too.

Of course, MD would jump right on this. Wanna bet Frosh has legislation requiring smart guns sitting in his desk drawer right now?

Since the threads were metered, this disappeared... It's the NJ code citation. (Emphasis mine.)

http://statutes.laws.com/new-jersey/title-2c/section-2c-58/2c-58-2-3

2C:58-2.3 Reports as to availability of personalized handguns.

2. a. On the first day of the sixth month following the effective date of P.L.2002, c.130 (C.2C:58-2.2 et al.), the Attorney General shall report to the Governor and the Legislature as to the availability of personalized handguns for retail sales purposes. If the Attorney General determines that personalized handguns are not available for retail sales purposes, the Attorney General, every six months thereafter, shall report to the Governor and the Legislature as to the availability of personalized handguns for retail sales purposes until such time as the Attorney General shall deem that personalized handguns are available for retail sales purposes and so report to the Governor and the Legislature. In making this determination, the Attorney General may consult with any other neutral and detached public or private entity that may have useful information and expertise to assist in determining whether, through performance and other relevant indicators, a handgun meets the statutory definition of a personalized handgun set forth in N.J.S.2C:39-1.

b.For the purposes of this section, personalized handguns shall be deemed to be available for retail sales purposes if at least one manufacturer has delivered at least one production model of a personalized handgun to a registered or licensed wholesale or retail dealer in New Jersey or any other state. As used in this subsection, the term "production model" shall mean a handgun which is the product of a regular manufacturing process that produces multiple copies of the same handgun model, and shall not include a prototype or other unique specimen that is offered for sale.

SWO Daddy · May 2, 2014

ShallNotInfringe said:
You did notice the "yet" in there, right?

Do you know what "yet" stands for? You're Eligible Too.

Of course, MD would jump right on this. Wanna bet Frosh has legislation requiring smart guns sitting in his desk drawer right now?

Since the threads were metered, this disappeared... It's the NJ code citation. (Emphasis mine.)

http://statutes.laws.com/new-jersey/title-2c/section-2c-58/2c-58-2-3

As I read the MD law (and maybe I'm reading it wrong), the board needs to inform the GA, but there isn't anything stopping the roster board from making this technology a requirement for a gun to be on the roster. Note that the Armatrix gun IS on the roster ( https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/S...e/HandgunRoster/HandgunModels.aspx?manu=22103 ) - someone submitted it for approval. I would presume that the roster board will report this to the GA, but I'm not convinced that an action from the GA is required to make this type of technology mandatory.

Plainolme · May 2, 2014

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-dealer-changes-his-mind-after-death-threats/

El_flasko · May 2, 2014

Andy, I just watched your FB video and wanted to say thank you for your efforts and good intentions. You've been a tireless advocate for 2A in a shitty state in which to be one for a long time. I've bought from EA before and plan to do so again the next time I'm down that way from hazard county. Keep your chin up and don't let this BS get the best of you. We don't know each other well personally, but know I support you, your company, and your love of 2A.

Stay strong man,

Ryan (fellow bald, stout, bearded guy)

Slimjim · May 2, 2014

You guys realize the best way to defeat smart guns becoming common is for dealers to refuse to sell them right now, in their infancy, show them Nobody wants this tech at all, or it will soon be required on all guns. This IS an infringement on your rights, a barrier to you being able to defend yourself, And Any dealer who would even consider selling such a thing Is no longer a friend of the second amendment. You guys in MD have already had a bunch of your rights stripped away, why welcome another step in removing your rights?

Next, all smart guns will be required to have a kill switch or the police will carry a jammer once this is common tech, to stop any smart gun from being used in a certain area. Or being able to disable a firearm remotely. Its a very slippery slope.

I see engages response to everything thats happened, but he brought it on himself by even considering selling this device, It doesnt matter if he hasnt stocked any or sold any, his first response should have been "Hell no." Not talking to the media about how he would carry them.
You give them an inch, and they'll take a mile like they did in jersey, the key is never giving them the inch (The first smart gun sale in MD would be it, needing the roster review and all) And then it'd start the ball down hill.

For the record, I don't condone the death threats. But they happened to that jersey dealer until he backed off, You didn't think they'd happen to you?

danb · May 2, 2014

“To me that is so fricking hypocritical,” Raymond had said. “That’s the antithesis of everything that we pro-gun, pro-Second Amendment people should be. You are not supposed to say a gun should be prohibited. Then you are being no different than the anti-gun people who say an AR-15 should be prohibited.”

^^^ this.

sad to see there are so many hypocrites in the pro-gun community.

Slimjim said:
You guys realize the best way to defeat smart guns becoming common is for dealers to refuse to sell them right now, in their infancy, show them Nobody wants this tech at all, or it will soon be required on all guns.

The best way to show there is no demand is to show there is no demand by offering it, and no one shows up. You have a problem with the anti gunners mandating this technology, as does everyone. But if someone wants this technology, whats the problem, so long as people can choose, or not choose?

teratos · May 2, 2014

Slimjim said:
You guys realize the best way to defeat smart guns becoming common is for dealers to refuse to sell them right now, in their infancy, show them Nobody wants this tech at all, or it will soon be required on all guns.

Ummm, no. They had legislation written to institute the technology BEFORE IT EXISTED. Do you think a little detail like us not wanting it will make a damn bit of difference? The sure didn't give a sh!t when they banned the most popular sporting rifle in the Country last year. They don't care that the HQL amounts to a poll tax. They don't care.

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