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Old January 11th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Crab Bait View Post
There is no question about arrest, BTW.
Right from the form I filled out in 2008, there is only a question: Are you under indictment for or are you presently charged with a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, or are you a fugitive from justice? Are you wanted by law enforcement for the commission of a crime?

I believe that is question 8.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #42
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You are disqualified in MD for anything REGULATED till you get it expunged.
this is blatantly false. My brother was arrested because his girlfriend had a marijuana pipe on her and they both were arrested. Since the penalty was a fine, he pled guilty so as not to have to hire a lawyer for 2600 bucks, instead paying the 100 dollar fine and having done with it.

Turns out a guilty plea can NEVER be expunged, and he's had a hell of a time getting a job because of this, but he has more guns than I do, many of them bought after his so called conviction.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #43
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That's a 4473 not 77R.
And an old one too.


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Clandestine, You're the reason gun owners are continually screwed over because you can't just shut up. You have to get a ruling as if to prove something. No doubt they will go with the most strict interpretation possible in regards to OAL. Not that I ever planned on doing business with you, but I will make sure that anyone who asks my opinion on your services doesn't go to you. You'll be solely responsible for the lousy method of measuring OAL resulting in wretched pinned muzzle devices.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #44
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oh and for the record, my brother is not a drug guy, that girl was trouble in a big way


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #45
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From a Google search, came off of a Law Office page. Hope it helps.

Is a PBJ a conviction?
Can a PBJ be a conviction? In Maryland, there are more dispositions than just “guilty” or “not guilty”. We also have “probation before judgment”, known as “PBJ”. Because it allows a defendant to resolve a case without a trial and without a conviction, many lawyers, particularly those interested in a “quick plea”, consider this disposition to be the grease that oils the wheels of the criminal justice system. The disposition of PBJ is created by a statute found in Section 6-220 of the Criminal Procedure Article of the Annotated Code of Maryland. This statute specifically states that “Discharge of a defendant under this section shall be without judgment of conviction and is not a conviction for the purpose of any disqualification or disability imposed by law because of conviction of a crime.” Lawyers routinely tell their clients who receive a PBJ that they can legally state that they have not been convicted of a crime.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:06 PM   #46
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Questions about convictions and current charges or wanted by the police:

Question 2: Have you ever been convicted of a crime of violence.

Lots of stuff in parenthesis with examples

Question 3: Have you ever been convicted of any violation classified as a felony in this State; any misdemeanor in this state that carries a statutory penalty of more than 2 years; any violation classified as a common law offense where you received a term of imprisonment of more than 2 years; or any violation classified as a common law offense regardless of sentence imposed? (Examples of common law offenses included but are not limited to: assault, battery, resisting arrest, obstruction or hindering a police officer, and false imprisonment.)

Question 4: Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?

Lots of stuff in parenthesis giving examples and a reference to the ATF form 4473 definition.

Question 6: If you are less than 30 years of age at the time of completing this application, have you ever been adjudicated delinquent by a juvenile court for: a crime of violence; any violation classified as a felony in this State; or any violation classified as a misdemeanor in this State the carries a statutory penalty of more than 2 years.

Question 8: Are you under indictment for or are you presently charged with a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, or are you a fugitive from justice? Are you wanted by law enforcement for the commission of a crime?

Of course, just typed these in for discussion purposes from a form I filled out in 2008 (MSP 77-R1 (01/07)), check the forms out personally and consult the MSP or an attorney.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #47
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thats an old form..
Oops, are there additonal questions on the newer forms
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #48
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Oops, are there additonal questions on the newer forms
the only give away.... top question about nationality.. and hispanic origin


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #49
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There is no question about arrest, BTW.
I could have swore there was, down there with, "are you a habitual drunkard?" (Personally, my favorite question, right in front of, "are you a fugitive from justice?")


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rickman View Post
From a Google search, came off of a Law Office page. Hope it helps.

Is a PBJ a conviction?
Can a PBJ be a conviction? In Maryland, there are more dispositions than just “guilty” or “not guilty”. We also have “probation before judgment”, known as “PBJ”. Because it allows a defendant to resolve a case without a trial and without a conviction, many lawyers, particularly those interested in a “quick plea”, consider this disposition to be the grease that oils the wheels of the criminal justice system. The disposition of PBJ is created by a statute found in Section 6-220 of the Criminal Procedure Article of the Annotated Code of Maryland. This statute specifically states that “Discharge of a defendant under this section shall be without judgment of conviction and is not a conviction for the purpose of any disqualification or disability imposed by law because of conviction of a crime.” Lawyers routinely tell their clients who receive a PBJ that they can legally state that they have not been convicted of a crime.
This seems to sum up the OP question. I understand the FFL's position as if he is dissaproved, then the dealer is stuck with gun. Albeit that he could just charge a restocking fee.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:22 PM   #51
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I could have swore there was, down there with, "are you a habitual drunkard?" (Personally, my favorite question, right in front of, "are you a fugitive from justice?")
Question 10: Are you a habitual drunkard or are you an addict or habitual user of any controlled dangerous substances? (Habitual drunkard means any person who has been found guilty of any 3 alcohol offenses, one of which was within the last year. Habitual user of controlled dangerous substances means any person who has been found guilty of two controlled dangerous substance offenses, one of which ocured within the past 5 years.)

From form MSP 77R-1 (01/07) - not sure if there is a newer version. DYODD


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Crownroyal79 View Post
This seems to sum up the OP question. I understand the FFL's position as if he is dissaproved, then the dealer is stuck with gun. Albeit that he could just charge a restocking fee.
restocking fee which havent left the store? (that i dont get).


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Crownroyal79 View Post
This seems to sum up the OP question. I understand the FFL's position as if he is dissaproved, then the dealer is stuck with gun. Albeit that he could just charge a restocking fee.
They arent stuck...you already paid for it....if you cant take possession of it thats for you to figure it. It needs to be sold to someone else or transfered to another FFL. I'm sure the FFL might buy it back as a used gun with about 40% off what you paid for it.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:30 PM   #54
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Usually if your disappproved you will get back a portion of what you paid for it. If the store does down payments (10%) which Realco an MSAR does you dont get that back
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #55
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4 pages of replies soo quick thank you everyone.

For a handgun I though the app asks
"have you been arrested.."
"have you been charged.."
"have you been convicted.."
But doesn't say "crime punishable by more than 1 year or 2..etc

Not sure of the cash and carry is different..
The ffl I got mine from originally was just guns. Today at the show they were not so friendly (kinda yelling) so I went to gun connections and they said the same thing (a lot nicer though).
If I'm wrong and the app says "punishable by more than a year" then I can answer NO but what I was told by both FFL's is if you say you've been arrested (regardless of why) app process is over. I can get the old arrest expunged but technically it would be a lie if I said NO. MSP said its the ffl decision to submit it. I also had a DUI but got unsupervised PBJ for 1 yr and completed it. This I know cannot be expunged but it shouldn't disqualify since it was PBJ.

It sounds like the ffl just has to submit it with yes,yes,no and MSP can approve. Since MSP says it shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks again for all the responses


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #56
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I still think you may be confused on the questions. You should make sure you are clear on them, what they mean and if you can answer no.

When you air past mistakes or bad behavior to a store owner or employee then they can personally say they won't sell to you even if the actions are not disqualifying at the MSP or national levels. Their choice I believe on what it their personal or store policy.

For example, a first and only DUI offense where you got PBJ, and did the probation successfully, is not disqualifying. But if you walk in to someone's gun store and start telling them you had a DUI arrest, you never know, they may have had a family member or friend killed or injured by a drunk driver and refuse your business.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #57
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I am not an attorney, rather relaying what my attorney told me to do in 1999:
I was charged with a .09 DUI in 1999 (before the legal level dropped to .08).
I received PBJ with 30 days of unsupervised probation. My attorney told me, quite clearly, that a PBJ is not a conviction and cannot be treated as one once the probation is over. I have purchased more than one regulated firearm since my PBJ ended and have never been "Disapproved" by MSP.
The bottom line is this... PBJ is not a conviction. Stop answering 'yes' on your forms and this problem will go away.


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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #58
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As long as you were not convicted, you have legal precedent on your side.
White vs. State of Maryland
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by lx1x View Post
so that means its true??
I do not know what you are talking about


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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by squaregrouper
I am not an attorney, rather relaying what my attorney told me to do in 1999:
I was charged with a .09 DUI in 1999 (before the legal level dropped to .08).
I received PBJ with 30 days of unsupervised probation. My attorney told me, quite clearly, that a PBJ is not a conviction and cannot be treated as one once the probation is over. I have purchased more than one regulated firearm since my PBJ ended and have never been "Disapproved" by MSP.
The bottom line is this... PBJ is not a conviction. Stop answering 'yes' on your forms and this problem will go away.
I will answer no to the conviction but the problem is the arrest or charge question. I cant say no because I don't want MSP to think I'm trying to pull a fast one but if I answer yes to arrest and charge then ffl says no (not MSP)


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