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Old February 10th, 2012, 01:08 PM   #21
suptier
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Just want throw what I heard from ATF and MDState Police.

They both said, because it is my residence even though I am living close to the school I can own a gun and possess. If I am carrying to the gun range then I have to unload, lock it in the truck and transport back and forth even though the school property is 3 feet from the road I have to drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
Rewritten and passed in 1995. It remains unchallenged constitutionally.

CCW holders of the state the school is in are exempt. BATFE says it needs to be issued bu the state the school is in but that is also up for interpretation.

What a mess.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 05:39 AM   #22
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Having an in state CCW will exempt you from any Federal charges. I don't know if the state(s) have their own charges they could bring you up on, I guess it depends on the state.
There will be challenges, most probably by reciprocal permit holders traveling in city areas with many nearby schools. When you plot out the GFSZ, it almost makes it impossible to get through certain areas.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:50 AM   #23
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I would imagine the likelihood of a police confrontation would be small; there is no requirement to inform. So if for some reason an officer is questioning the possession, looking at the circumstances and having full understanding of the law and it's requirements, I'd imagine nothing would come of it. There are those "special" areas in Maryland where I wouldn't take that risk.

You have to know your area and it doesn't hurt to talk to police. All the po-po in my neighborhood know me and know my character and understand we are on the same team. YMMV.


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Old March 13th, 2012, 02:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndCharter View Post
The Maryland version is the one that will get you if you have a permit as there is no exception for permit holders.
Do you have a link for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer_jim View Post
I thought the Federal 1000' "school zone" bill was overturned by SCOTUS? School grounds are fair game by state and local by law though, there is no federal 1000' rule anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds25 View Post
I too was under the impression that the Supreme Court overturned this law
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
Rewritten and passed in 1995. It remains unchallenged constitutionally.

CCW holders of the state the school is in are exempt. BATFE says it needs to be issued bu the state the school is in but that is also up for interpretation.

BATFE ruling attached. Effectively negates any reciprocity
According to Wikipedia (witch I only trust so far) it was overturned in SCOUTS and that is the reason it was rewritten in 1995 to add a commerce clause to make it "constitutional" and therefore in effect and the law. As for the non res permits unfortunately the bill does say permit issued by the state the GFSZ is located and I don't know the what states have as far as there own laws regarding that haven't got that far yet.


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Old March 13th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyWarMonger View Post
Do you have a link for that?
Not the poster that you quoted, but I was curious. IANAL, so this is just my personal opinion/interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland Criminal Law Annotated
4-102. Deadly weapons on school property


(a) Exceptions. -- This section does not apply to:

(1) a law enforcement officer in the regular course of the officer's duty;

(2) a person hired by a county board of education specifically for the purpose of guarding public school property;

(3) a person engaged in organized shooting activity for educational purposes; or

(4) a person who, with a written invitation from the school principal, displays or engages in a historical demonstration using a weapon or a replica of a weapon for educational purposes.

(b) Prohibited. -- A person may not carry or possess a firearm, knife, or deadly weapon of any kind on public school property.

(c) Penalty. --

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, a person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $ 1,000 or both.

(2) A person who is convicted of carrying or possessing a handgun in violation of this section shall be sentenced under Subtitle 2 of this title.

Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. 4-102
(emphasis mine)
The bolded section provides no exception for permit holders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland Criminal Law Annotated
4-203. Wearing, carrying, or transporting handgun


(a) Prohibited. --

(1) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, a person may not:

(i) wear, carry, or transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, on or about the person;

(ii) wear, carry, or knowingly transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, in a vehicle traveling on a road or parking lot generally used by the public, highway, waterway, or airway of the State;

(iii) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph while on public school property in the State; or

(iv) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another person.

(2) There is a rebuttable presumption that a person who transports a handgun under paragraph (1)(ii) of this subsection transports the handgun knowingly.

(b) Exceptions. -- This section does not prohibit:

(1) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person who is on active assignment engaged in law enforcement, is authorized at the time and under the circumstances to wear, carry, or transport the handgun as part of the person's official equipment, and is:

(i) a law enforcement official of the United States, the State, or a county or city of the State;

(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard on duty or traveling to or from duty;

(iii) a law enforcement official of another state or subdivision of another state temporarily in this State on official business;

(iv) a correctional officer or warden of a correctional facility in the State;

(v) a sheriff or full-time assistant or deputy sheriff of the State; or

(vi) a temporary or part-time sheriff's deputy;

(2) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person to whom a permit to wear, carry, or transport the handgun has been issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article;

(3) the carrying of a handgun on the person or in a vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun to or from the place of legal purchase or sale, or to or from a bona fide repair shop, or between bona fide residences of the person, or between the bona fide residence and place of business of the person, if the business is operated and owned substantially by the person if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(4) the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(5) the moving by a bona fide gun collector of part or all of the collector's gun collection from place to place for public or private exhibition if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(6) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person on real estate that the person owns or leases or where the person resides or within the confines of a business establishment that the person owns or leases;

(7) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a supervisory employee:

(i) in the course of employment;

(ii) within the confines of the business establishment in which the supervisory employee is employed; and

(iii) when so authorized by the owner or manager of the business establishment;

(8) the carrying or transporting of a signal pistol or other visual distress signal approved by the United States Coast Guard in a vessel on the waterways of the State or, if the signal pistol or other visual distress signal is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case, in a vehicle; or

(9) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person who is carrying a court order requiring the surrender of the handgun, if:

(i) the handgun is unloaded;

(ii) the person has notified the law enforcement unit, barracks, or station that the handgun is being transported in accordance with the court order; and

(iii) the person transports the handgun directly to the law enforcement unit, barracks, or station.

(c) Penalty. --

(1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to the penalties provided in this subsection.

(2) If the person has not previously been convicted under this section, 4-204 of this subtitle, or 4-101 or 4-102 of this title:

(i) except as provided in item (ii) of this paragraph, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 30 days and not exceeding 3 years or a fine of not less than $ 250 and not exceeding $ 2,500 or both; or

(ii) if the person violates subsection (a)(1)(iii) of this section, the person shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not less than 90 days.

(3) (i) If the person has previously been convicted once under this section, 4-204 of this subtitle, or 4-101 or 4-102 of this title:

1. except as provided in item 2 of this subparagraph, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 1 year and not exceeding 10 years; or

2. if the person violates subsection (a)(1)(iii) of this section, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

(4) (i) If the person has previously been convicted more than once under this section, 4-204 of this subtitle, or 4-101 or 4-102 of this title, or of any combination of these crimes:

1. except as provided in item 2 of this subparagraph, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 3 years and not exceeding 10 years; or

2. A. if the person violates subsection (a)(1)(iii) of this section, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years; or

B. if the person violates subsection (a)(1)(iv) of this section, the person is subject to imprisonment for not less than 5 years and not exceeding 10 years.

(ii) The court may not impose less than the applicable minimum sentence provided under subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. 4-203
(emphasis mine)
However, the bolded sections here provide what appears to be an exception to 4-102. I don't know how that plays out in the courts - does 4-102 stand on its own or does 4-203 actually create an exception for permitted carriers?


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Old March 13th, 2012, 09:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndCharter View Post
The Maryland version is the one that will get you if you have a permit as there is no exception for permit holders.
I don't see a "school zone" rule in MD code...just "on school property" in 4-102


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Old March 13th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
I don't see a "school zone" rule in MD code...just "on school property" in 4-102
Right, Maine and PA are the same way. Also, in PA you can carry on school grounds with a permit as long as it's not normal school hours.


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Old March 13th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer_jim View Post
Also, in PA you can carry on school grounds with a permit as long as it's not normal school hours.
Got a cite for that? That is not an exception that I am familiar with.


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Old March 16th, 2012, 09:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD438 View Post
...does 4-102 stand on its own or does 4-203 actually create an exception for permitted carriers?
Quote:
"...I believe that a simple reading of the two sections you refer to answers your question. Criminal Law Article 4-203(a) generally prohibits the wearing, carrying or transportation of a handgun. CR 4-203(b)(2) states that “This section” (referring only to CR 4-203) does not prohibit the wearing, carrying or transportation of a handgun by an individual to whom a handgun carry permit has been issued. The exception in subsection (b)(2) only applies to the prohibition against wearing, carrying or transportation of a handgun under CR 4-203(a). It does not apply to any other section of the Criminal Law Article.

CR 4-102(b) prohibits the carrying or possession of a handgun on public school property. Subsection (a) lists 4 exceptions to the general prohibition. Possession of a handgun carry permit is not one of the 4 exceptions. Accordingly, the possession of a handgun carry permit does not exempt an individual from the application of CR 4-102(b)."

- Assistant Attorney General Mark Bowen
10/27/2011
Emphasis mine.


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Old March 21st, 2012, 01:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndCharter View Post
Emphasis mine.
Could you post a link please to the AG opinion? Thx. I have no case law on this. This actually is interesting conflict. 4-203 makes express reference to school property also covered by the more general statute 1-102. One could argue that the specific controls over the general. Wish we had case law on this


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Old March 21st, 2012, 03:09 PM   #31
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This was via an email to me from the assistant AG. When I get back to the office I'll pm you the entire email.


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Old March 21st, 2012, 07:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 2ndCharter View Post
This was via an email to me from the assistant AG. When I get back to the office I'll pm you the entire email.
Many thaks. Plz see my reply


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Old March 21st, 2012, 07:25 PM   #33
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This was via an email to me from the assistant AG. When I get back to the office I'll pm you the entire email.
Can the peons see this?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 08:00 PM   #34
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Can the peons see this?
The relevant part was quoted. I only need the rest in order to potentially fight with the AG's office after I get my permit


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Old March 21st, 2012, 08:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esqappellate View Post
The relevant part was quoted. I only need the rest in order to potentially fight with the AG's office after I get my permit
Got it from the AG's office in the first post of the long gun carry thread

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=54444
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Old April 6th, 2012, 08:53 AM   #36
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Im confused because the federal GFSZ states an exemption for pemit holders of the state were the school zone is and MD law says "on" school property not a school zone. But the AG meter makes it sound like you would be in violation for being in a school zone regardess of a MD permit or not. Did I read it wrong or am I missing something.


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Old April 6th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD438 View Post
Not the poster that you quoted, but I was curious. IANAL, so this is just my personal opinion/interpretation.

(emphasis mine)
The bolded section provides no exception for permit holders.

(emphasis mine)
However, the bolded sections here provide what appears to be an exception to 4-102. I don't know how that plays out in the courts - does 4-102 stand on its own or does 4-203 actually create an exception for permitted carriers?
That is unresolved in the courts. The AG's office has informally opined that 102 is separate and independent and that you could thus still be charged under 102, even if you can't be under 203.


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Old April 6th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by MightyWarMonger View Post
Im confused because the federal GFSZ states an exemption for pemit holders of the state were the school zone is and MD law says "on" school property not a school zone. But the AG meter makes it sound like you would be in violation for being in a school zone regardess of a MD permit or not. Did I read it wrong or am I missing something.
that federal law permits it just means that you have not violated federal law that otherwise would criminalize the carry. The state can impose different and more strict requirements, like under 102.


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Old April 7th, 2012, 05:04 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by esqappellate View Post
that federal law permits it just means that you have not violated federal law that otherwise would criminalize the carry. The state can impose different and more strict requirements, like under 102.
Question for Esq. Can the state law be less restrictive than the Federal law?
If yes you could be legal as far as the state is concerned but in violation of the GFSZA?
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Old April 11th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #40
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I am still amazed that I can't carry within 1000' of a school in PA because I don't have a PA license, but I can in VA because of my VA license. (And my VA license is good in the rest of PA.)

Couldn't someone make the case that the feds have taken away the right of PA to decide which permits it honors?
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