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SCARCQB
April 5th, 2011, 01:00 PM
I'm planning on a new AR15 build.

It is going to be an SBR and needs to be quiet ( suppressed), cycle and has more power than a 9mm.

I'm thinking

A) 300Whisper/ 300 Fireball
B) 300blackout

both using 220 grain 30 caliber projectiles ( subsonic), Both should cycle the action and be able to use eithr a 7.62 or 9mm can.

C) Stay with a 9mm subsonic


What do you guys think?

Cerebus
April 5th, 2011, 01:13 PM
I have been toying with the idea of a 300 Whisper for a year now. After talking with AKA-Spook, I think I'm going to go the Blackout route. I just don't know if I want to go with an AR or a bolt.

Bart_man
April 5th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Subbed for noob education...it just sounds effin cool.

SCARCQB
April 5th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Subbed for noob education...it just sounds effin cool.

Both Whisper and Blackout are proprietary wildcat chamberings that use a 5.56 shell , necked up and use a heavy 308 projectile. The heavy weight keeps the bullet subsonic and these should cycle in AR15s. They also use the same standard AR mags.

What's nice about these cartridges in it's subsonic form is the ability to use existing pistol cans ( 9mm-40SW and 45ACP) to suppress them. 308 cans also work well. They also pack more power than a 9x19 or a subsonic 5.56. Unsuppressed loads have similar ballistic performance to the 7.62x39.( you must use a 308 can for full power loads)

The 300 whisper and 300 blackout is ideal for ranges from CQB- 300 yards. Most quality builds also produce MOA accuracy.

ammo is a bit expensive... ( about 1.80-2.00 bucks/ round), but reloaders should be able to produce them for less.

Bart_man
April 5th, 2011, 01:35 PM
Dammit SCAR...

You're gonna make me reload too! I was avoiding that one.

Cerebus
April 5th, 2011, 01:36 PM
Is Blackout technically still considered a wildcat since it has a SAAMI spec now? I really think that's the only "plus" it has over the Whisper. That and I've read that the Blackout to Whisper is kinda like 5.56 to .223 ...where the Whisper is a little tighter. The Blackout will take Whisper, but the reverse isn't ideal.

SCARCQB
April 5th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Dammit SCAR...

You're gonna make me reload too! I was avoiding that one.

You have to get a Beta-C/ machinegun to really appreciate the joys of reloading:D

4g64loser
April 5th, 2011, 02:32 PM
SCAR,

since your wife wont let you reload, you might want to stick to subsonic 9mm. the other stuff is cool, but in your case it might get too expensive to shoot regularly.

At the realistic engagement ranges for a suppressed SBR, wouldn't a burst of 9mm do the trick? Also allows much greater choice in projectiles. The 308 heavies specified for reliable cycling in the 300 calibers will not, even if loaded with premium quality projectiles, expand reliably at the low velocities they will be launched at. On paper, you get a flatter trajectory with the potential for greater downrange energy but your terminal performance on target is likely to approximate FMJ low-velocity 30 cal pistol bullets. If you can find a load that expands and kills reliably, great, but even using 30-30 soft-lead round nose (if you can get them to feed properly) projectiles at 1040fps or slower you probably will have minimal expansion.

SCARCQB
April 5th, 2011, 03:00 PM
SCAR,

since your wife wont let you reload, you might want to stick to subsonic 9mm. the other stuff is cool, but in your case it might get too expensive to shoot regularly.

At the realistic engagement ranges for a suppressed SBR, wouldn't a burst of 9mm do the trick? Also allows much greater choice in projectiles. The 308 heavies specified for reliable cycling in the 300 calibers will not, even if loaded with premium quality projectiles, expand reliably at the low velocities they will be launched at. On paper, you get a flatter trajectory with the potential for greater downrange energy but your terminal performance on target is likely to approximate FMJ low-velocity 30 cal pistol bullets. If you can find a load that expands and kills reliably, great, but even using 30-30 soft-lead round nose (if you can get them to feed properly) projectiles at 1040fps or slower you probably will have minimal expansion.

I was thinking along the same lines.That is why i kinda put subsonic 9mm out there as a third choice. Noise levels of the 300 whisper/fireball/Blackout will be the similar ( subsonic, suppressed).

AS for ballistics.. I think you are correct in stating that the 300's will not expand reliably in such low velocities. A 7.62x25 tokarev round might be more effective in creating shock cavities. ( in lieu of expansion)

Infidel and I will be bringing the SW SP-10s( HK 94 clones) carbines over to the shop. Those are in need of an SBR treatment and a possibly a new can.

I shot a couple of boxes of Extreme shock 5.56 subsonics from an AR/M42K combo. I was surprized that it cycled. It was quiet too. However, Extreme shock seems to have gone under. ( Pesky nytrillium rounds were made of unobtainium) At 3 bucks/ round, they too were very expensive.

BenL
April 5th, 2011, 03:03 PM
An SBR Blackout with a can is on my "some day soon" list. In the next couple of months, I'll be purchasing the can (either a Gemtech Sandstorm or a YHM Titanium can.)

4g64loser
April 5th, 2011, 03:26 PM
I was thinking along the same lines.That is why i kinda put subsonic 9mm out there as a third choice. Noise levels of the 300 whisper/fireball/Blackout will be the similar ( subsonic, suppressed).

AS for ballistics.. I think you are correct in stating that the 300's will not expand reliably in such low velocities. A 7.62x25 tokarev round might be more effective in creating shock cavities. ( in lieu of expansion)

Infidel and I will be bringing the SW SP-10s( HK 94 clones) carbines over to the shop. Those are in need of an SBR treatment and a possibly a new can.

I shot a couple of boxes of Extreme shock 5.56 subsonics from an AR/M42K combo. I was surprized that it cycled. It was quiet too. However, Extreme shock seems to have gone under. ( Pesky nytrillium rounds were made of unobtainium) At 3 bucks/ round, they too were very expensive.


Well, I'm thinking that if a platform/load can be worked that will run 5.56 subsonics reliably but allow you (probably without the can) to run full power ammo, that would be acceptable. problem is you are shooting .22lr ballistics in almost every case unless you have such a ridiculous barrel twist that you are able to shoot 90gr projectiles.....and then shooting 55s would be marginal at best....

I'm still going with 9mm. available standard ammo in a pinch. subsonics available in factory loadings. You can get "heavy" projectiles that are actually designed to expand at the velocity they are likely to encounter a target. Winchester Silvertip 147s have given me good results both in factory and handloads.

Jaybeez
April 5th, 2011, 04:45 PM
Both Whisper and Blackout are proprietary wildcat chamberings that use a 5.56 shell , necked up and use a heavy 308 projectile. The heavy weight keeps the bullet subsonic and these should cycle in AR15s. They also use the same standard AR mags.

What's nice about these cartridges in it's subsonic form is the ability to use existing pistol cans ( 9mm-40SW and 45ACP) to suppress them. 308 cans also work well. They also pack more power than a 9x19 or a subsonic 5.56. Unsuppressed loads have similar ballistic performance to the 7.62x39.( you must use a 308 can for full power loads)

The 300 whisper and 300 blackout is ideal for ranges from CQB- 300 yards. Most quality builds also produce MOA accuracy.

ammo is a bit expensive... ( about 1.80-2.00 bucks/ round), but reloaders should be able to produce them for less.

Why not get a 7.62 x 39 upper, 500 rounds of wolf, a 440 round spam can of x54r heavy ball, mexican match them, and shoot for $0.45 per round plus the cost of powder? You might be able to sell the leftovers and shoot even cheaper. At subson speeds, the 180gr x39 should have less drop right?

Will it fit in a magazine?

JeepDriver
April 5th, 2011, 08:03 PM
As much as I hate AAC, I will own a 10" 300 Blackout in the future. I'm waiting on the ammo to become more aviable.

300 Whisper would have been my choice if it had a ammo supplier other then hand loading or Cor Bon.

I have a 5.5" barreled 9mm upper with an AWC suppressor. Very quiet, good ammo capacity, just lacks range.

Lapua Dan
April 5th, 2011, 08:07 PM
.

hvymax
April 5th, 2011, 08:10 PM
What about a 762-39 upper with subsonics? You will save a fortune in ammo.

SCARCQB
April 5th, 2011, 08:24 PM
A 10" Blackout upper from Noveski or Wilson is nice.... I know it not too practical right now. But I still want one.

Bart_man
April 5th, 2011, 08:28 PM
you guys are a bad influence on me...and my finances.

and the learning curve keeps getting steeper.

anyone got $300

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=223642625

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/223642000/223642625/pix524158897.jpg

JoeBobOutfitters.com
April 5th, 2011, 10:15 PM
We're building two 300 Whisper's in-house here over the next ~month. We're cutting down some take-off 700 barrels and one of the employees has a lathe to cut our own chambers. We're starting off with 16.5" barrels/Carbine length gas system to see how that goes (Twist rate isn't ideal for the takeoff barrels for subsonics). If that works out, might look into doing an ~10" SBR/Pistol gas system subsonic setup once we get the kinks worked out. Gonna be sweet :D

Numidian
April 5th, 2011, 10:35 PM
I vote Option D... 7.62x25 Tokarev. Use a magwell block and PPS mags for standard 7.62x25. Use standard AR mags for 7.62x25 brass loaded with 168-200gr or bigger .308 projectiles.

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/Miscstuff/762_x_25_group.sized.jpg

Numidian
April 5th, 2011, 10:37 PM
And MOVIES!

ALkP0dKBGgc
hitKrIXOnLY

smokey0118
April 5th, 2011, 10:41 PM
I vote Option D... 7.62x25 Tokarev. Use a magwell block and PPS mags for standard 7.62x25. Use standard AR mags for 7.62x25 brass loaded with 168-200gr or bigger .308 projectiles.

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/Miscstuff/762_x_25_group.sized.jpg

okay....that's cool:thumbsup:

although the heavier rifle projectiles won't "expand" at those velocities, what about yawing. When they turn sideways, that's one wide hole it's boring through something. How reliably will they yaw within 8-14" of soft tissue?

JoeBobOutfitters.com
April 5th, 2011, 11:10 PM
7.62x25TOK is definitely on my "want" list for an AR upper....didn't think about loading it with longer rounds for subs :innocent0

Bart_man
April 6th, 2011, 06:54 AM
So .,.,. Much .,.,. WIN

in this thread.

Engage Armament
April 6th, 2011, 10:10 AM
I would go 300 Blackout all the way. Remington owns AAC and is backing the production and we're getting alot of LE inquires. Seems like its going to be a serious "real" round. Not to mention the 762SDN-6...

4g64loser
April 6th, 2011, 10:30 AM
the 7.62x39 with heavy projos works, but you must be careful of barrel twist, especially at low velocities.

i'm thinking about doing this trick with a Yugo underfolder AK. big honkin can that can handle the full auto full power stuff and be real quiet with hand-rolled subsonics.

i like AKs, so take my AR hating with a grain of salt.

Hopalong
April 6th, 2011, 12:23 PM
I vote Option D... 7.62x25 Tokarev. Use a magwell block and PPS mags for standard 7.62x25. Use standard AR mags for 7.62x25 brass loaded with 168-200gr or bigger .308 projectiles.

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/Miscstuff/762_x_25_group.sized.jpg

I just soiled myself slightly. Wow.

SCARCQB
April 6th, 2011, 12:43 PM
I'm going with the blackout as well. I wonder what is the optimized barrel length for 220 grain subsonics. It will be a dedicated suppressed upper and I have no plans of shooting high velocity rounds out of it.

Again, Suppressed weapons like short barrels. A 16" is the most versatile as it can go on any lower. But chances are, it may on occasion break the sound barrier. I think a 9-10" in 1:8 twist will be nice threaded 5/8x24tpi. I can use a YHM 308 phantom or an SWR trident.

4g64loser
April 6th, 2011, 02:33 PM
SCAR,

When you get the upper, as long as it is subsonic only, it can be tuned and tweaked a bit to allow for the "sweet spot" load to cycle.

I'd get a longer upper to allow for you to run it on any lower you want and also to increase the dwell time and hopefully up the reliability of the gas system. Suppressor helps, but it is no substitute for longer BBL. The other thing is that when you shorten the barrel you have to use a faster burning powder to avoid having large amounts of powder still burning in the suppressor (louder and effs with both reliability and accuracy). To get the quietest rig u can, I'd go 16" and then the gun can be played with.

SCARCQB
April 6th, 2011, 02:44 PM
I'm going with the 16" barrel... then cut it down if needed.

JeepDriver
April 6th, 2011, 03:38 PM
I'm going with the blackout as well. I wonder what is the optimized barrel length for 220 grain subsonics.

I think a 9-10" in 1:8 twist will be nice threaded 5/8x24tpi. I can use a YHM 308 phantom or an SWR trident.

IIRC, the 9" barrel is the length they did the testing on.

10" with a YHM is what I'll own in the future. Something for wacking deer with out waking people up.

AirCav73
April 19th, 2011, 08:25 PM
I would stick with the 9mm subsonic. There are still a lot of choices in this round and the price will not "kill" you.

canuck
April 20th, 2011, 07:51 AM
I just built a .300blackout with a noveske 10" and a vltor mid-length monolithic rail. BCM FA BCG, PRI gasbuster CH and an a-2 birdcage (pending delivery of AAC 7.62SDN-6).

Anyone seen ammo anywhere other than subsonic?

Lapua Dan
April 20th, 2011, 07:57 AM
.

SCARCQB
April 20th, 2011, 07:59 AM
Will the subsonic load cycle the 10" upper without a can?

<Mach1
April 21st, 2011, 07:09 PM
Will the subsonic load cycle the 10" upper without a can?From Noveske, regardless of barrel length:
"~ designed to run optimally firing both subsonic suppressed and supersonic unsuppressed, while keeping supersonic suppressed reliable. It may not reliably cycle the action under adverse conditions with subsonic ammunition unless a silencer is attached ~"

frozencesium
April 29th, 2011, 02:38 PM
I'd go 300 blackout personally, then save for a while and pick up a Gen 2 NV optic for it...perfect for hog hunting! Could also skip the NV and slap anything of choice on it...

Bart_man
April 29th, 2011, 08:08 PM
I'd go 300 blackout personally, then save for a while and pick up a Gen 2 NV optic for it...perfect for hog hunting! Could also skip the NV and slap anything of choice on it...

more win

Joe bob. post some pics and or video of the two
builds please

Russ D
April 30th, 2011, 06:24 PM
I just built a .300blackout with a noveske 10" and a vltor mid-length monolithic rail. BCM FA BCG, PRI gasbuster CH and an a-2 birdcage (pending delivery of AAC 7.62SDN-6).

Anyone seen ammo anywhere other than subsonic?

Handloading 110 Vmax's would be awesome!

BenL
April 30th, 2011, 06:55 PM
Would an AAC Cyclone be too long for a Blackout upper? More of a change for baffle strikes?

rsideout
April 30th, 2011, 08:06 PM
Would an AAC Cyclone be too long for a Blackout upper? More of a change for baffle strikes?

I have a Degroat Tactical MK12 Recon can made for .300 Whisper. It's 12" long, so the AAC Cyclone should be fine.

BenL
April 30th, 2011, 09:00 PM
I have a Degroat Tactical MK12 Recon can made for .300 Whisper. It's 12" long, so the AAC Cyclone should be fine.

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know. What length barrel and twist are you using?

rsideout
April 30th, 2011, 10:40 PM
I don't have a 300 whisper yet, but as noted, this can is made for that caliber. Right now it's on An AR57 with a 6" barrel.

midcountygunshop
April 30th, 2011, 11:47 PM
I just found this thread, so sorry for the late post. I have built a number of 300/221 rifles now, so let me share my findings. Barrel length for subsonic use? 10" is all it takes to stabilize the bullet and get an efficient burn. I have a SBR AR I did in 300/221, and it is a 10" barrel. It cycles well with my subsonic 220gr and supersonic 125gr. Can't swear it will cycle with all rounds people have, but I have run Corbon with no issues. I will say the Corbon does not have the accuracy my loads have. I recently heard Hornady is soon to offer 300 Whisper loads as well. The bolt guns I have been building are Remington 700 based, using Shilen 1:8 twist, modified extractor system(a must for reliability in the Remington), a 14.5" barrel length, and a permanently pinned on YHM QD flash hider for use with the 308 Phantom suppressor. Check out my thread in the industry partner section for more details. That was an early prototype with a 16" barrel. Customers seemed interested in shorter and lighter, so now I do them all with the fixed flash suppressor.
It was mentioned that the subsonic 30 cal will not expand. That is not a bad thing. The 220 and 240 gr bullets are tumblers when used in this caliber. The wound cavity of one of these bullets tumbling end over end is much more effective then if it expanded. Some people make these calibers with 1:7 twist barrels, but I don't believe in that route. The 1:8 twist has been proven to stabilize up to 240gr, but not over stabilizing it. With the 1:7 the bullet may not do the tumbling it was intended to do. I have shot quart size milk jugs at over 200 yds, and witnessed large exit holes that show the bullet was turned side to in that short distance. You won't get that type of performance from a 9mm subsonic. At 300 yds the subsonic 'Whisper' is still hitting with nearly the same force as a 45acp does at 25yds. All that from a rifle that can shoot sub moa and be quieter then a pellet gun. I will never be with out one of my 300/221 rifles, as I love shooting it as much as any gun I own.

midcountygunshop
April 30th, 2011, 11:56 PM
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=39225 In case you want to read any more on the 300/221 (aka 300 Whisper)

SCARCQB
April 30th, 2011, 11:57 PM
The reason I wanted to see if the subsonic 300 blk will work without a can is because there is not eenough data out there to figure out the optimum twist rate, barrel length vs load. Will need to check for bullet stability when cooking up loads and avoid costly baffle strikes.

I'm going to experiment with a 30 cal and 9mm can. I like the 9mm can due to the weight reduction. I may go with a 16" barrel and have it cut to 9" and use a Gemtech trinity to start with.

midcountygunshop
May 1st, 2011, 12:04 AM
10" I know from experience will work, and I would think anything down to 8" will stabilize. I like to stay with the 308 can for the smaller through hole and better suppression. Also, if I want to shoot super sonics I still use the same can. I am going to switch to the Phantom TI for the weight savings when my first batch of TI's arrive, which hopefully will be very soon.

Bart_man
May 7th, 2011, 09:13 PM
Why not get a 7.62 x 39 upper, 500 rounds of wolf, a 440 round spam can of x54r heavy ball, mexican match them, and shoot for $0.45 per round plus the cost of powder? You might be able to sell the leftovers and shoot even cheaper. At subson speeds, the 180gr x39 should have less drop right?

Will it fit in a magazine?


Ok so I'm thinkin.....help a Noob out with My edu-ma-cay-shun

I like the 7.62x39 idea... heres an upper from Joebobs.

Edit : looks like jobob is changing the website
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/KIES-MKl-7.62x39-2.jpg

Kies MK1 7.62x39 Complete Upper (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Kies_MK1_7_62x39_Complete_Upper_p/kies-mkl-7.62x39.htm)

I thinking of mating this with one of the Three Spikes lowers coming into my house.

Jimbob2.0
May 7th, 2011, 09:20 PM
Damn I like that I have three lowers coming to. I bet I can load 7.62 39 nice and soft









Ok so I'm thinkin.....help a Noob out with My edu-ma-cay-shun

I like the 7.62x39 idea... heres an upper from Joebobs.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/KIES-MKl-7.62x39-2.jpg

Kies MK1 7.62x39 Complete Upper (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Kies_MK1_7_62x39_Complete_Upper_p/kies-mkl-7.62x39.htm)

I thinking of mating this with one of the Three Spikes lowers coming into my house.

Bart_man
May 8th, 2011, 12:41 PM
so bump and

help a Noob out with My edu-ma-cay-shun

That was an invitation to send me information and links on things I will need to know about putting a 7.62x39 upper on my spikes lower.
parts considerations?
help me out guys this will be my first build.

Scar let me know to GTFO of your thread and I will start my own.

JoeBobOutfitters.com
May 9th, 2011, 12:38 AM
Ok so I'm thinkin.....help a Noob out with My edu-ma-cay-shun

I like the 7.62x39 idea... heres an upper from Joebobs.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/KIES-MKl-7.62x39-2.jpg

Kies MK1 7.62x39 Complete Upper (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Kies_MK1_7_62x39_Complete_Upper_p/kies-mkl-7.62x39.htm)

I thinking of mating this with one of the Three Spikes lowers coming into my house.

We should hopefully have these in stock and shipping within ~2 weeks with magazines as well. We'll have new magazines with Kies branding in the $30 range with 5, 10, and 30rd capacities.

ALL of the Kies Uppers (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/category_s/2938.htm) are guaranteed 1" accuracy potential (including 7.62x39) and are super nice. Everything has been meticulously thought out. This brand of products have been in the works for 6 months now and just now really coming to a head. They will have M16 bolts, bhand lapped/trued billet upper receivers, linear compensators, ceramic coated bores (extends barrel life) and much more. They'll be a sweet option without a big pricetag. :party29:

On a side note and to keep on topic, we test-fired our first "home grown" 300BLK 16" upper this weekend. Now on to tweaking the gas system (JP adjustable gas block)/buffers/load development :D

Bart_man
May 9th, 2011, 07:44 AM
We should hopefully have these in stock and shipping within ~2 weeks with magazines as well. We'll have new magazines with Kies branding in the $30 range with 5, 10, and 30rd capacities.

Excellent..this idea is sounding better and better



ALL of the Kies Uppers (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/category_s/2938.htm) are guaranteed 1" accuracy potential (including 7.62x39) and are super nice. Everything has been meticulously thought out. This brand of products have been in the works for 6 months now and just now really coming to a head. They will have M16 bolts, bhand lapped/trued billet upper receivers, linear compensators, ceramic coated bores (extends barrel life) and much more. They'll be a sweet option without a big pricetag. :party29:

This will be my first AR build and my gift to myself on the way out of the military. It will be one of 3 spikes lowers from the two group buys. One of the three is designated as belonging to Fionnros(mrs bartman).
Thanks for chiming in Joebob!


On a side note and to keep on topic, we test-fired our first "home grown" 300BLK 16" upper this weekend. a
:needpics:
:needpics:

Now on to tweaking the gas system (JP adjustable gas block)/buffers/load development :D

I'd like more detail here in Noob language if I can have it please.

BenL
May 9th, 2011, 08:37 AM
On a side note and to keep on topic, we test-fired our first "home grown" 300BLK 16" upper this weekend. Now on to tweaking the gas system (JP adjustable gas block)/buffers/load development :D

Will you be selling the brass and dies?

JoeBobOutfitters.com
May 10th, 2011, 12:48 AM
This will be my first AR build and my gift to myself on the way out of the military. It will be one of 3 spikes lowers from the two group buys. One of the three is designated as belonging to Fionnros(mrs bartman).
Thanks for chiming in Joebob!

You would qualify for 5% off military discount (THANKYOU) or the MD shooter discount which is also 5% (can't combine though, sorry).

Basically, we need to tune the upper/rounds to cycle at the proper rate with right amount of gas. These are takeoff Rem 700 308 barrels and are designed for supersonic only, basically as a "test run" to get all the threading, chambering, etc correct. Not something you want to "Try out" on an expensive blank :D

This one was done on a personal lathe of one of the employees (Ian). We're gonna make 3 uppers or so in this first batch, probably a pair of 16" barrels w/ mid-length gas and an ~11" pistol barrel with carbine gas system.

http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/300blk.jpg

Currently it's setup with:
LAR stripped upper
Spike's BCG (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SP-ST5BG01)(used a random BCG for initial testing for function but will use the M16 BCG for reals)
Vortex .308 Flash hider (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/308_Caliber_Smith_Vortex_Flash_Hider_p/rra-308a0001v.htm)(will probably get swapped out for a can/QD?)
Bare metal on the barrel, we'll finish it off with durakote or something, unsure at this point
JP adjustable Gas Block (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Low_Profile_Adjustable_Gas_Block_p/brn-452-000-050.htm)
YHM Diamond Handguards (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Diamond_Series_Forearms_p/yhm-dx.htm)

We'll probably use Kies Adjustable Gas Block (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Kies_Adjustable_Gas_Block_Low_Profile_p/kies-adj%20gas%20block.htm) on the second/third build. It's a little smaller/lighter and a bit less expensive than the JP, although it is REALLY nice :party29:.

Will you be selling the brass and dies?

At this time we bought the dies/chamber reamer aftermarket. Unsure about brass/dies/etc. We haven't really ventured into that arena as of yet.

Patrick
May 12th, 2011, 08:48 AM
The reason I wanted to see if the subsonic 300 blk will work without a can is because there is not eenough data out there to figure out the optimum twist rate, barrel length vs load. Will need to check for bullet stability when cooking up loads and avoid costly baffle strikes.

I'm going to experiment with a 30 cal and 9mm can. I like the 9mm can due to the weight reduction. I may go with a 16" barrel and have it cut to 9" and use a Gemtech trinity to start with.

Call Rob Silvers at AAC/Remington and ask for technical data and his ideas. He is the point man for the 300 BLK roll-out and works with industry as well as home-gamers. You can probably find him on the LWRC forum - just look for the long threads full of Remington haters.

I gave them some crap online and in person (SHOT) over good gear with zero ammo availability. I'd love a 300 BLK option - I have the suppressor already - but won't get suckered into another 6.8mm SPC fiasco, where Remington talks a bunch of firms into producing the "next big thing" and then fracking abandons the whole enterprise.

That's what is hurting 300 BLK. It isn't technical, it's the fact nobody trusts Remington to follow this to the end. It can take a decade for a new caliber to uptake. Will they go the whole way?

Until ammo becomes readily available (at a decent price), I want it but won't touch it.

Whisper will never get uptake with BLK out there. The whole damn caliber class is at risk if Remington blows this.

4g64loser
May 12th, 2011, 09:34 AM
Patrick hits it here......

These weapons have some serious potential but without factory ammo, you will never see them come out of the shadows occupied by handloaders and those that can buy large volumes of custom-made loads from small producers.

I'd love to see these rounds take off, but like Patrick, I have my doubts about Remington's ability to make it stick.

BenL
May 12th, 2011, 09:38 AM
I hope it does stick. I'm picking up an upper in 300BLK and AAC 762SD (or at least paying for it) next week. I plan on hand-loading, so really don't need the factory ammo, but it would still be nice if I could readily find brass for it.

Bart_man
May 12th, 2011, 10:35 AM
Call Rob Silvers at AAC/Remington and ask for technical data and his ideas. He is the point man for the 300 BLK roll-out and works with industry as well as home-gamers. You can probably find him on the LWRC forum - just look for the long threads full of Remington haters.

I gave them some crap online and in person (SHOT) over good gear with zero ammo availability. I'd love a 300 BLK option - I have the suppressor already - but won't get suckered into another 6.8mm SPC fiasco, where Remington talks a bunch of firms into producing the "next big thing" and then fracking abandons the whole enterprise.

That's what is hurting 300 BLK. It isn't technical, it's the fact nobody trusts Remington to follow this to the end. It can take a decade for a new caliber to uptake. Will they go the whole way?

Until ammo becomes readily available (at a decent price), I want it but won't touch it.

Whisper will never get uptake with BLK out there. The whole damn caliber class is at risk if Remington blows this.

Patrick hits it here......

These weapons have some serious potential but without factory ammo, you will never see them come out of the shadows occupied by handloaders and those that can buy large volumes of custom-made loads from small producers.

I'd love to see these rounds take off, but like Patrick, I have my doubts about Remington's ability to make it stick.

I hope it does stick. I'm picking up an upper in 300BLK and AAC 762SD (or at least paying for it) next week. I plan on hand-loading, so really don't need the factory ammo, but it would still be nice if I could readily find brass for it.

I will be watching this with interest.

I have 3 lowers coming 1 from Tss's buy and two from Maui's
I have decided that the spikes punisher lower from the second two will be a 7.62x39 upper...wondering about the Kies upper from Joebobs or gun connection has 7.62x39 from bushmaster...(advice here might be helpful)
the second upper from Maui's group buy is a Pirate and Fionnros has spoken for that one. She wants a rifle she can take deer hunting. Not sure what to do there (again advice is welcomed) 6.8 or maybe another 7.62
the third is the one from TSS's group...I became an alternate on that buy so I'll get whatever I'm given, but I think that one is a spider colorfill.
this lower is not yet assigned a project.
I've been thinking if I want a traditional 5.56/.223 or something else.
I originaly subbed to this thread to sponge knowledge off of all you guys and I liked the sound of Remington supporting the .300blk because I am not bitten by the reloading bug yet and am resisting it a bit longer because I'm wanting to build my collection first before investing in loading gear...and I dont really have a workspace. I'm gonna need a bigger house too.

Patrick
May 12th, 2011, 11:17 AM
7.62x39 in an AR format is tricky. Mags are the biggest issue out there - the AR magwell and the round taper are not conducive to each other. Just because it fits doesn't mean it was meant to work. I have given up trying to get a configuration that is drop-dead reliable. I would definitely not consider it for hunting. Some have more luck or apply more elbow grease. I hit my limit exchanging (yet again) the "best" mags for the second time, driving into Virginia to a FedEx facility to make the exchange off MD territorial limits.

Me. Done.

This is why I want 300 BLK to get proper traction.

What I might do is go for a Rem 700 in 300 BLK. If I thread the barrel, I can use my suppressor and the bolt action means I won't spend as much on ammo each time out. But - of some concern - Remington apparently stopped selling it and AAC modified their front page to point to the rifle in .308 instead. A search for "blackout" on the Remington website turns up zero hits. :innocent0

See, that's the kind of stuff that keeps me on edge.

Bart_man
May 12th, 2011, 04:07 PM
so whats the difference between an AR-15 lower and an AR-10 lower?
I'm assuming that when you go to .308 there are significant changes, but I dont know what

JoeBobOutfitters.com
May 12th, 2011, 04:23 PM
so whats the difference between an AR-15 lower and an AR-10 lower?
I'm assuming that when you go to .308 there are significant changes, but I dont know what

It's bigger for the most part all around. Some parts interchange but others don't. Pistol grips fit a bit differently and magazine related items are completely different as the OAL of cartridges/magazines are much larger on an AR10 platform.

SCARCQB
May 12th, 2011, 04:31 PM
so bump and



That was an invitation to send me information and links on things I will need to know about putting a 7.62x39 upper on my spikes lower.
parts considerations?
help me out guys this will be my first build.

Scar let me know to GTFO of your thread and I will start my own.

keep it coming... I'm learning a lot from others as well.:thumbsup:

gunconnection
May 12th, 2011, 04:53 PM
I personally built a Rem700 in 300whisper and it's great 1/2moa short range caliber. Short range being inside 150yds. I had a custom Leupold scope built for it with 100moa of travel and I am using a Nightforce +40moa base. It now has enough travel to shoot 200yds with subsonic ammo. 300 Whisper is a great caliber for deer, subsonic or supersonic.
This year, I will be building a SBR in 300BlackOut. The AR platform is, IMO, the best platform to build a 300 Blkout or whisper on because the gas system reduces the velocity greatly which allows the use of different/better propellents. I have read that 300 whisper ammo can be used in the 300 blackout, too. CMMG is now offering 300 Blackout and that is the manufacturer that I will be using for my build.

Inigoes
May 12th, 2011, 08:21 PM
keep it coming... I'm learning a lot from others as well.:thumbsup:

A complete upper (http://www.jsesurplus.com/custom7.62x39uppers.aspx)

Enhanced Reliability Firing system for7.62x39 -Firing Pin & Bolt (https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=48&type=&category=)

Make sure you have a heavy buffer, anything mil-spec will work. The Palmetto buffer from the grup buys is a bit light.

C Products AR15 30rd 7.62x39 Magazine (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=MCPAR762)

A note: on the C Products magazines, you may have to tune them. Basically filing off excess. I've been running around 50%, when I order batches. Most mags require filing the sides a little.

rsilvers
May 12th, 2011, 10:33 PM
Really it is going to take until the end of the year to get to the point where I said we would be at now. Capacity was a lot, but it is being tripled - as the ammo going into the market has not yet saturated the market. Most everyone still shows out of stock. Given the quantities of ammo being made, it can't be that much longer until everyone has all they need. And Hornady ammo is coming out by July.

Patrick
May 13th, 2011, 06:29 AM
Really it is going to take until the end of the year to get to the point where I said we would be at now. Capacity was a lot, but it is being tripled - as the ammo going into the market has not yet saturated the market. Most everyone still shows out of stock. Given the quantities of ammo being made, it can't be that much longer until everyone has all they need. And Hornady ammo is coming out by July.

Thanks for the update.

What happened to the Rem 700 in 300 BLK, or was that all bad memory on my part?

I could have sworn I saw one linked from the AAC page...

I was going to look into one for this summer, provided I could find decent ammo. Preferably threaded 5/8-24 for a 762 suppressor.

Inigoes
May 13th, 2011, 11:16 AM
This thread is pure evil for those that have a few stripped lower laying around.

The 300 Blackout seems like a good caliber...

Must resist the temptation.

BenL
May 13th, 2011, 12:26 PM
This thread is pure evil for those that have a few stripped lower laying around.

The 300 Blackout seems like a good caliber...

Must resist the temptation.

http://ambassadorsforjesus5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/darth_vader.164175113.jpg

Come to the dark black side...

(but don't do it before next week; I still need brass, and don't need you guys getting it all. :D )

SCARCQB
May 13th, 2011, 05:47 PM
Presenting............ ( drum roll please)

the 5.56 Whimper RF ( 62 grain 5.56 subsonic RimFire)

Its actually a 62grain 5.56 boat tail on a 22 LR case. 1000 FPS from a 1:7 twist barrel.Stays subsonic and low pressures allow the use of 22 suppressors.
Uses 22 WMR magazines. < 20 cents per round.

Cycles 100 % on AR conversion uppers. Similar ballistics to the FN 5.7x28mm subsonic ( Quietor) rounds. Fragment well with limited penetration. Sub 1 moa groups with standard M4 barrels. AR57s and PS90 can me fitted with an adapter to use these rounds. P90 mags work reliably.

I'm such a happy camper with this new wildcat round......... THEN my wife woke me up...It was only a dream.

Inigoes
May 13th, 2011, 05:50 PM
http://ambassadorsforjesus5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/darth_vader.164175113.jpg

Come to the dark black side...

(but don't do it before next week; I still need brass, and don't need you guys getting it all. :D )

The furniture is going to be wood on the last couple of builds, so they won't quite be EBRs ;)

Kingjamez
May 13th, 2011, 08:02 PM
Have ya'll seen this video with the Osprey and the 300 AAC Blackout?

7qkJxXmvj6w

Patrick
May 14th, 2011, 08:56 AM
Those were supersonic rounds and the 45 Osprey dropped it near hearing safe range when dry, and below the range (125 db) when wet. Not bad.

Wonder what subsonic would do?

BenL
May 17th, 2011, 12:28 PM
I picked up my 300BLK upper yesterday from GC, and must say that it's actually nicer than I was expecting. Free-floated, and the low profile gas block it set back so far, I could cut the barrel back to 10" and it would probably still cycle OK with the suppressor I also bought, yesterday :D .

I'll shoot it this weekend and see what kind of accuracy I can get out of it.

CrabbyMcNab
May 17th, 2011, 12:40 PM
Anxiously waiting for your results

Kingjamez
May 17th, 2011, 01:13 PM
Nice! Really looking forward to hearing what you think about it. Are you set up to reload for it? What suppressor did you go with?

-Jim

BenL
May 17th, 2011, 02:02 PM
Nice! Really looking forward to hearing what you think about it. Are you set up to reload for it? What suppressor did you go with?

-Jim

I picked up some Forester dies (Midway), Remington 7.5's (Bass Pro), and ordered some SMK 220gr pills (Sinclair's), but AA1680 is rarer than hen's teeth; I'll probably have to order it from Widener's and just pay the hazmat fee. When I got the upper yesterday, I also grabbed a few boxes of factory 220gr subsonic loads (Dan had them in stock; that guy has everything.) That's what I'll shoot this weekend, just to try it out. If it's ~1MoA or better, it will wear a 1.8-10X U.S. Optics SN-3s scope; if it's less accurate than 1-2MoA, I'll cut it down to 10" and put an Eotech on it.

I purchased an AAC 762SD and had a 51 tooth QR put on the upper. I'll get a second QR for my precision rifle, as well.

Kingjamez
May 17th, 2011, 08:21 PM
If it's ~1MoA or better, it will wear a 1.8-10X U.S. Optics SN-3s scope; if it's less accurate than 1-2MoA, I'll cut it down to 10" and put an Eotech on it.

I purchased an AAC 762SD and had a 51 tooth QR put on the upper. I'll get a second QR for my precision rifle, as well.

Nice. You don't cheap out do you? :party29:

On your scope choices: I have always been under the impression that the subsonic blackout is really a close quarters master. If your able to squeeze out performance worthy of a U.S. Optics 10x scope that would be amazing.

-Jim

Hol3shot
May 17th, 2011, 10:19 PM
Nice. You don't cheap out do you? :party29:

On your scope choices: I have always been under the impression that the subsonic blackout is really a close quarters master. If your able to squeeze out performance worthy of a U.S. Optics 10x scope that would be amazing.

-Jim

I just watched some of those videos in your sig. AWESOME job on that lower. Not to mention the videos were great with your laymans explanation on how you went about it.

BenL
May 17th, 2011, 11:04 PM
Nice. You don't cheap out do you? :party29:




Sadly, no. :)



On your scope choices: I have always been under the impression that the subsonic blackout is really a close quarters master. If your able to squeeze out performance worthy of a U.S. Optics 10x scope that would be amazing.


From others I've talked to who are experienced with this round, the trick is getting the right scope mount. With the right scope mount (20-30 MoA), you could squeeze 250-300 yards with the 220gr SMK at 1050fps from the barrel. According to my ballistics software, with a 100 yard zero, at 250 yards, it's a 7 milradian drop; for my scope, that's 70 clicks of adjustment. A feat I know the scope can do. Even at 300 yards, the 220gr bullet is still traveling ~930 fps: more energy than a .45ACP at point blank range.

Bart_man
September 26th, 2011, 12:39 PM
keep it coming... I'm learning a lot from others as well.:thumbsup:

Heres where I am with mine.
I built the lower
CMMG Grip
MAKO recoil reducing stock
MILSPEC buffer tube and spring
SPIKEs T2 buffer.
SPIKEs MIL trigger/spring/hammer/spring
PSA LPK (less trigger parts)
SPIKEs Stripped Punisher lower (Group buy)
Bushmaster complete 7.62x39 Upper.
MAGPUL forend and AFG.


http://tapatalk.com/mu/6c16ffb5-ba38-b948.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/1/0/4/9/6/img_20110820_224741.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/1/0/4/9/6/img_20110825_203841.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/6c222620-3de4-b8f2.jpg


So I have had it to the range now and have a rough zero with the Iron sights.
the rifle functions beautifully with good ammo but I've had a few rounds of the cheaper ammo (TULA) FTF.
4 rounds out of a box.
I tried a second hit on two of the rounds and they still did not ignite.

based on the Idea that I will want to be able to use mil surplus ammo in this rifle, I'm looking at a change to help this situation.



Good Mags
Recut and Widened M4 Ramps with "Ramp Jump"(Polished)
BCM M16 Carrier
H3 or Spikes ST2 Buffer
Colt Recoil Spring
MGI Enhanced 762x39 Bolt Head

Based on Chad's reliablilty suggestions from an earlier thread I was thinking about swapping the MGI enhanced bolt head in but its $200+

GC Dan said leave the Bushmaster bolt alone and to get an extra power Hammer spring and swap that in.
I think I will try that first since its substantially less expensive.

Any comments? chad?

clandestine
September 26th, 2011, 01:40 PM
Heres where I am with mine.
I built the lower
CMMG Grip
MAKO recoil reducing stock
MILSPEC buffer tube and spring
SPIKEs T2 buffer.
SPIKEs MIL trigger/spring/hammer/spring
PSA LPK (less trigger parts)
SPIKEs Stripped Punisher lower (Group buy)
Bushmaster complete 7.62x39 Upper.
MAGPUL forend and AFG.


http://tapatalk.com/mu/6c16ffb5-ba38-b948.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/1/0/4/9/6/img_20110820_224741.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/1/0/4/9/6/img_20110825_203841.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/6c222620-3de4-b8f2.jpg


So I have had it to the range now and have a rough zero with the Iron sights.
the rifle functions beautifully with good ammo but I've had a few rounds of the cheaper ammo (TULA) FTF.
4 rounds out of a box.
I tried a second hit on two of the rounds and they still did not ignite.

based on the Idea that I will want to be able to use mil surplus ammo in this rifle, I'm looking at a change to help this situation.





Based on Chad's reliablilty suggestions from an earlier thread I was thinking about swapping the MGI enhanced bolt head in but its $200+

GC Dan said leave the Bushmaster bolt alone and to get an extra power Hammer spring and swap that in.
I think I will try that first since its substantially less expensive.

Any comments? chad?

Bring it friday if you dont test it before then. I can tweak it.

XP Hammer Springs dont usually fix it. The MGI Bolt allows more Firing Pin protrusion.

Bart_man
September 27th, 2011, 11:28 AM
Bring it friday if you dont test it before then.

Yes folks I admit I have a date with Chad.

I'm not sure what to wear. I don't own any assless chaps.

clandestine
September 27th, 2011, 11:30 AM
Yes folks I admit I have a date with Chad.

I'm not sure what to wear. I don't own any assless chaps.

SUper Glue and Duct Tape slows me down signicantly.

BTW, Does your Wife know? :lol2:

Bart_man
March 2nd, 2012, 01:23 PM
I picked up some Forester dies (Midway), Remington 7.5's (Bass Pro), and ordered some SMK 220gr pills (Sinclair's), but AA1680 is rarer than hen's teeth; I'll probably have to order it from Widener's and just pay the hazmat fee. When I got the upper yesterday, I also grabbed a few boxes of factory 220gr subsonic loads (Dan had them in stock; that guy has everything.) That's what I'll shoot this weekend, just to try it out. If it's ~1MoA or better, it will wear a 1.8-10X U.S. Optics SN-3s scope; if it's less accurate than 1-2MoA, I'll cut it down to 10" and put an Eotech on it.

I purchased an AAC 762SD and had a 51 tooth QR put on the upper. I'll get a second QR for my precision rifle, as well.


Ben did you get rid of the Dies when you dumped the rifle?

Whats up with .300 AAC BLK?

the guy from Rem promised avaliablity. This week I witnessed Dan selling out of and scrounging for more .300 ammo.

Flipz
March 2nd, 2012, 01:54 PM
Those were supersonic rounds and the 45 Osprey dropped it near hearing safe range when dry, and below the range (125 db) when wet. Not bad.

Wonder what subsonic would do?

They were not supersonic. They were subsonic. Notice that they were 220gr. Silencerco even noted at the beginning of the video that the Osprey's can only handle subsonic 300blk.

Patrick
March 2nd, 2012, 03:38 PM
They were not supersonic. They were subsonic. Notice that they were 220gr. Silencerco even noted at the beginning of the video that the Osprey's can only handle subsonic 300blk.

Worth noting and sensible. The pressure difference should be big. I am too lazy to look it up right now.

Patrick
March 2nd, 2012, 03:42 PM
Ben did you get rid of the Dies when you dumped the rifle?

Whats up with .300 AAC BLK?

the guy from Rem promised avaliablity. This week I witnessed Dan selling out of and scrounging for more .300 ammo.

Silvers always promises that fat ammo "will be released in just a few weeks" but in over two years of promises, none has been delivered. 300BLK is going the way of 6.8, and the name behind both shouldn't be trusted on this score, anymore. It's a round for wildcatters and loaders, only.

Too bad. I wanted both at one time. Leave it to Rem to screw things up this bad.

BenL
March 2nd, 2012, 03:54 PM
Ben did you get rid of the Dies when you dumped the rifle?

Whats up with .300 AAC BLK?

the guy from Rem promised avaliablity. This week I witnessed Dan selling out of and scrounging for more .300 ammo.

No. In fact, I like the caliber so much, I'm building two: a 16" Noveske custom left-handed 300AAC Blackout and a 8" Noveske Blackout left-handed pistol. That's why I'm selling the right-handed rifle; to help fund these two builds.

Brass and bullets are very plentiful and always will be (5.56 brass and .308 bullets.) I have ZERO fear of investing in a 300BLK rifle.

Bart_man
March 2nd, 2012, 04:56 PM
No. In fact, I like the caliber so much, I'm building two: a 16" Noveske custom left-handed 300AAC Blackout and a 8" Noveske Blackout left-handed pistol. That's why I'm selling the right-handed rifle; to help fund these two builds.

Brass and bullets are very plentiful and always will be (5.56 brass and .308 bullets.) I have ZERO fear of investing in a 300BLK rifle.


Hence the reason why I'm asking about reloading gear...

Fionnros's new "Purple Pirate" is a .300 blk....

http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/1/0/4/9/6/img_20120201_191658.jpg

BenL
March 3rd, 2012, 07:41 PM
Looks good; who made the furniture? Are you going to suppress it?

Bart_man
March 3rd, 2012, 08:14 PM
Looks good; who made the furniture? Are you going to suppress it?


The Furniture is a RRA walnut set sanded back down to bare wood and re-stained purple and laquered clear.

Bart_man
March 3rd, 2012, 08:22 PM
Are you going to suppress it?

oh and ...we will be in the market for a can after we get some bills paid off.
I've done some light research but am open to suggestions.

Jimbob2.0
March 3rd, 2012, 08:48 PM
Blackout, one is in my future

BenL
March 4th, 2012, 07:14 PM
oh and ...we will be in the market for a can after we get some bills paid off.
I've done some light research but am open to suggestions.

I have the AAC 762-SD and have been really happy with it. I also use it on a .308. It is a *little* big; if I were buying a suppressor just for the Blackout, I'd take a serious look at the 762-SDN-6.

Patrick
March 5th, 2012, 08:09 AM
The SDN-6 is designed for SBR applications where the smaller volume will help cycle the rifle via increased pressures. So if you go SBR, it is a logical choice.

I also have the 762-SD (larger) and am happy with it. It is slightly quieter than the SDN-6, but I doubt anyone would notice.