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View Full Version : Black Powder Handguns in MD. Laws re: Ordering on-line???


Bethesda John
November 2nd, 2007, 12:05 PM
I've been thinking about picking up a black powder repro CSA revolver from Cabelas. I was wondering if MD treated them like other handguns will the requirement of going through an FFL dealer or am I able to order them like a pair of boots?

Half-cocked
November 2nd, 2007, 12:23 PM
I have seen them hanging on display pegs, in blister packs, at Bass Pro Shops. Just take one off the peg and take it to the register.

AKbythebay
November 2nd, 2007, 12:25 PM
Like a pair of boots.

novus collectus
November 2nd, 2007, 12:35 PM
+1, like boots if you are talking about cap and ball BP revolver repros.

Adams74Chevy
November 2nd, 2007, 12:54 PM
My dad bought one 4 or 5 years ago, no paperwork no licenses. Just pay and go like a blackpowder rifle.

alucard0822
November 2nd, 2007, 12:56 PM
BP revolvers and muzzleloaders are uninfringed so far in MD. as are cartridge conversion cylinders, as long as they are sold separate from the revolver, shoulder stocks on BP pistols are also fun and legal. Have them shipped to your door, buy them in store, or trade buy sell privately FTF. The only limitation is if you were to conceal carry a BP pistol, in this case it is treated like any other pistol, requiring the infamous MD permit.

novus collectus
November 2nd, 2007, 01:08 PM
BP revolvers and muzzleloaders are uninfringed so far in MD. as are cartridge conversion cylinders, as long as they are sold separate from the revolver, shoulder stocks on BP pistols are also fun and legal. Have them shipped to your door, buy them in store, or trade buy sell privately FTF. The only limitation is if you were to conceal carry a BP pistol, in this case it is treated like any other pistol, requiring the infamous MD permit.
in this case it is treated like any other pistol Actually this is possibly a grey area as to legallity, but if it is actually illegal it would not be because it is like any other pistol, it would be because it is a concealed "weapon".
The difference is that the "Handgun" violation has a minimum jail sentence and fine, and the fine has a greater max than the "Dangerous Weapons" violation.
Right about the permit though because a permit allows carry of "handguns" as well as other "weapons".

Bethesda John
November 2nd, 2007, 03:17 PM
Thanks to all for the info.

thebrotha167
February 7th, 2008, 01:50 PM
My dad bought one 4 or 5 years ago, no paperwork no licenses. Just pay and go like a blackpowder rifle.

I purchased mine online and had it sent directly to my house.

mpickering
February 7th, 2008, 05:09 PM
BP revolvers and muzzleloaders are uninfringed so far in MD. as are cartridge conversion cylinders, as long as they are sold separate from the revolver, shoulder stocks on BP pistols are also fun and legal.

I'd be careful with this. When I purchased my Colt Navy 1851 Repo, I had do pistol paperwork on it in Virginia because it could accept the conversion cylinder. As a result, the law considered it a "firearm". My dealer may have been wrong on that point but the result was a 4473 transfer at the time.

I'd dig into the law on this. It a replica BP gun can be modified to fire modern ammo, I believe it loses its lack of paperwork status.

Matt

novus collectus
February 7th, 2008, 05:21 PM
I'd be careful with this. When I purchased my Colt Navy 1851 Repo, I had do pistol paperwork on it in Virginia because it could accept the conversion cylinder. As a result, the law considered it a "firearm". My dealer may have been wrong on that point but the result was a 4473 transfer at the time.

I'd dig into the law on this. It a replica BP gun can be modified to fire modern ammo, I believe it loses its lack of paperwork status.

Matt
No, not at all.
If it is in it's origional configuration and it is a muzzle loader, then it is an unregulated "antique".

However if it is already modified to be a modern handgun, then it is a modern handgun.

Here is an example, if you add a drop in conversion cylinder into an 1858 Remington replica, it becomes a modern handgun that you must sell as a modern handgun. But as soon as you take that drop in conversion cylinder out it is once again an "antique because the frame ("or reciever") has not been altered.
Now take an 1860 Colt Army and convert it to take cartridges (commercially available cartridges). Since the Colt 1860 requires aleration to the frame to accept that type of conversion, it is now a modern handgun even if the cylinder is removed.

A replica cap and ball revolver that is a muzzleloader is automatically an "antique" and will stay that way until altered.
A replica of an antique cartridge firing revolver using ammunition no longer commcerically available is also an "antique", unless you convert it to take commercially available ammunition.
However, if you have an actual antique made before 1899, it can fire modern, commercially available cartridge ammunition and still remain an antique as I understand it as long as the frame is unaltered.

coinboy
February 7th, 2008, 10:08 PM
Don't forget that you can legally manufacture a firearm for your own use. So just because you add a drop in cylinder to a "Antique" revolver doen't mean you have to register it with the MDSP, even though I bet they would like you to. Although, I'm no lawyer.

JSW
March 1st, 2008, 03:06 PM
just come to a N-SSA national match (next one in may) at fort shenandoah and you can shop and buy(and carry away) all the black powder pistols and rifles you want or can afford. check out www.N-SSA.ORG for more info and directions

Jim Keenan
August 18th, 2008, 02:48 PM
Watch the wording of the law, it doesn't say percussion revolver, it says "replica." There may be others, but I believe the MSP has ruled that the Ruger Old Army is NOT a REPLICA of any antique gun and so is subject to the same purchase law as any modern revolver.

Jim

novus collectus
August 18th, 2008, 03:02 PM
Watch the wording of the law, it doesn't say percussion revolver, it says "replica." There may be others, but I believe the MSP has ruled that the Ruger Old Army is NOT a REPLICA of any antique gun and so is subject to the same purchase law as any modern revolver.

Jim

Do you have a link on this?
If they really wanted to be that exact and say the general copy is not a replica, then almost none of the C&B revolvers are "replicas" because they all have slight differences. For instance, there was no brass frame open top Colt. Also, not all the cylinders are the exact length, the barrels usually aren't (7 1/2" instead of 8"), the steel is a different composition, different finish, the Pieta 1858 is really an 1862 with improvements of their own, etc. So I would really like to see this ruling because if true, it means just about every single cap and ball revolver or single shot Outdoor World has sold over the years was illegally sold and purchased. Thousands of us, and Bass Pro would all be criminals.

Jim Keenan
August 18th, 2008, 06:36 PM
Hi, NC,

Don't argue with me, write the MSP and ask them. I am giving "the scoop" as best I can and no I don't have a link to everything in the world.

If something affects you or you think you could get in trouble doing something, you would be foolish to take the word of anyone on a web site. Ask the people who make the regulations, the AG and the MSP. The rule may have changed, but when I bought a Ruger Old Army, I had to fill out the forms just like a "modern" S&W. The dealer showed me the letter from the MSP, and I think most dealers would have it, if it is still in effect.

Jim

novus collectus
August 18th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Hi, NC,

Don't argue with me, write the MSP and ask them.
Why bother? I have no reason to think any different from the common practice that is followed now.

I am giving "the scoop" as best I can and no I don't have a link to everything in the world.
no link or no citation of statute, then I am sorry, no credibility.
I will make exceptions for lack of links or lack of sources for people that do not have links on occasion that I know are in the trade or have been involved in a case relating to this or I know have a general understanding and I know personally.
Until you write the MSP and use that as a cite to say any different than what others have said, I will not even bother myself unless you can show me where in the statute I might be wrong.

If something affects you or you think you could get in trouble doing something, you would be foolish to take the word of anyone on a web site.
Yes, and the same goes to unwarranted over caution for laws that may not exist.

Ask the people who make the regulations, the AG and the MSP. The rule may have changed, but when I bought a Ruger Old Army, I had to fill out the forms just like a "modern" S&W. The dealer showed me the letter from the MSP, and I think most dealers would have it, if it is still in effect.

I will take your word for it as to what happened, BUT I doubt the circumstances and I do not know what you read because you have not shown a sample of the letter. As far as I know you totally misread the letter and so did your dealer.
I am sure there are more than a few people on this board which did NOT fill out any forms when they bought their Ruger Old Army. Like I bet Jim Sr. did not when he bought his Ruger Old Army.

rstickle
August 18th, 2008, 08:11 PM
A couple years ago y wife got me a LeMat for Christmas, she mail ordered it and it arrived..... No problem

Rick

Jim Sr
August 18th, 2008, 08:42 PM
Watch the wording of the law, it doesn't say percussion revolver, it says "replica." There may be others, but I believe the MSP has ruled that the Ruger Old Army is NOT a REPLICA of any antique gun and so is subject to the same purchase law as any modern revolver.

JimBlack powder revolvers predate the U.S. Civil War. They fire loose black powder and a ball via percussion caps placed on nipples on the back of the cylinder. They are used in special black powder competitions and during black powder hunting seasons. (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/firearms/FA-Type-RE.html)

coinboy
August 19th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Where do you get a black powder revolver with a conversion cylinder at? Sound like cheap fun to me!

novus collectus
August 19th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Where do you get a black powder revolver with a conversion cylinder at? Sound like cheap fun to me!
A newly made BP revolver with a conversion cylinder in it is not an antique (with one exception) and is a firearm by fed law, and a regulated firearm by state law. Unless it was made before 1984, I doubt you can buy one in MD because of the roster.

You can buy them seperated though. Sometimes you see the R&D cylinders at gun shows or at gun shops. I remember Bay Country Guns had a few for a while (but not the C&B revolvers though).
You can mail order both from Cabellas I think as well as other sources like Midway. Price for both gun and cylinder stars at about $450 and can be as high as I guess $700.

Adams74Chevy
August 19th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Where do you get a black powder revolver with a conversion cylinder at? Sound like cheap fun to me!

I know Midway USA carries BP pistols and conversion cylinders. Make sure that your BP revolver has a steel frame, the brass frame isn't strong enough for the conversion cylinders.

kalister1
August 19th, 2008, 10:53 AM
Years ago Bart's Sporting goods made me do the MSP paperwork and the 8 day wait to buy a BLANK gun, A starter pistol I used to train my Lab. I have no idea about the law, all I know is they would not sell me the blank gun without it. This is a little cap pistol at best, solid barrel and used small 22 blanks. The little plastic ones.

novus collectus
August 19th, 2008, 11:17 AM
Years ago Bart's Sporting goods made me do the MSP paperwork and the 8 day wait to buy a BLANK gun, A starter pistol I used to train my Lab. I have no idea about the law, all I know is they would not sell me the blank gun without it. This is a little cap pistol at best, solid barrel and used small 22 blanks. The little plastic ones.

They followed the law as I read it.
(n) (1) "Handgun" means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

(2) "Handgun" includes signal, starter, and blank pistols.

kalister1
August 19th, 2008, 12:17 PM
They sell the flare guns for boaters without paperwork. Woudn't they be considered Signal?

novus collectus
August 19th, 2008, 12:20 PM
They sell the flare guns for boaters without paperwork. Woudn't they be considered Signal?
5-102.

This subtitle does not apply to:

(1) the transfer or possession of a regulated firearm or detachable magazine:

(i) for testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and

(ii) by a federally licensed gun manufacturer, dealer, or importer;

(2) the sale, transfer, or possession of an antique firearm;

(3) an unserviceable firearm sold, transferred, or possessed as a curio or museum piece;

(4) law enforcement personnel of any unit of the federal government, members of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard, or law enforcement personnel of the State or any local agency in the State, while those personnel or members are acting within the scope of their official duties;

(5) a regulated firearm modified to render it permanently inoperative;

(6) purchases, sales, and transportation to or by a federally licensed gun manufacturer, dealer, or importer;

(7) an organization that is required or authorized by federal law governing its specific business or activity to maintain firearms;

(8) the receipt of a regulated firearm by inheritance, if the heir forwards to the Secretary a completed application to purchase or transfer that regulated firearm; or

(9) a signal pistol or other visual distress signal that the United States Coast Guard approves as a marine safety device. Depends on the flare gun under 16" in lenght.

kalister1
August 19th, 2008, 12:25 PM
Coast Guard approved, that makes the difference. Still a lot more dangerous than my starter pistol. Proof that laws are hard to follow!

Jim Keenan
August 22nd, 2008, 12:55 PM
OK, I am stymied. I said that the MSP at one time considered the Ruger Old Army a regulated firearm because it was not a "replica" of an antique, and was rather roundly flamed. However, one old time dealer backs me up and says that was true and there was such a letter but the rule has been rescinded. He no longer has the letter. The MSP people are all fairly new and don't recall anything about such a letter.

All I know is that I have a "200th year" Old Army with all the paperwork I had to fill out in 1976.

So, I still say I am right, but can't prove it. I am going to keep looking around, just to prove I am not really losing it.

For background, remember that was a period in which the AG and the MSP were really "cracking down" on guns. (The notorious D.C. handgun ban was passed that year.)

Jim

Jim Keenan
August 23rd, 2008, 04:53 PM
To add to the store of useless information, I spoke to another old time dealer who tells me that in that period, not only did the MSP require approval of Old Army sales but also of sales of percussion revolver kits. The same silly argument - that a kit was not a replica of an antique gun. That nonsense lasted some 4 years and was rescinded.

Jim