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Tom Perroni
November 29th, 2009, 10:29 PM
AAR’s CCJA Tactical Shotgun Course


I would like to thank the (5) MD Shooters who came out and participated in the Tactical Shotgun Course.

No need for intros as all in attendance had taken training with Pete and I.

Shotgun Power point:

Safety
Nomenclature
Pump/Semi Auto
“00” Buckshot V. Slugs
Patterning Buckshot & Bird Shot explained in detail
SLUG SELECT EXPLAINED for JT
Combat Loading Under / Over hand while keeping the shotgun on the threat!
Admin Loading
Malfunctions
Fundamentals of Shotgun Shooting
PUSH-PULL
QCB Position

Shotgun Manipulation Drills in the classroom with “DUMMY” rounds

On the Range:

Buckshot Patterning we learned most shotguns are good to 15 yards. We also learned that after 15 yards and out you always have one of the 9 pellets that is a flyer. Where is that .33 caliber pellet going? “Tack 8 Buckshot “for home defense.

Don’t forget 1 inch of spread for every yard is a good guideline so 25 yards is 25 inches of spread.

I am sure most learned that the shotgun is a close in weapon.

Les proved that slugs have more knock down power!!!!!!!!!!!! Than "00" Buckshot!

Transitioning a shotgun is a different skill set if you are familiar with transitioning your carbine.

Pistol skills are pistol skills some people got them and some need lots of help!

Fighting to your feet with a shotgun is much different than a pistol or carbine.

One handed reloads are more difficult than they look ……Sara Conner or your knee……..Most opted to use their knees. Since that is what they learned in CCJA Tac 1 Pistol.

I think everyone liked the new barricades and steel plate racks.

Most shot a little over 200 rounds shotgun and maybe 75/100 pistol.

Move…. Shoot….. Reload….run right handed and left handed got the blood pumping.


I won’t give everything away!!! I will let the students give you their opinions.

I'm sure the AAR'S WILL be Good! I’m looking forward to them!


Tom

kac
November 29th, 2009, 11:13 PM
Too bloody worn out from the course to do an AAR tonight. Definitely one tomorrow AM.

kac
November 30th, 2009, 07:23 AM
I attended the CCJA Tactical Shotgun I course on 29 November, 2009. In so many ways, it was extremely emblematic of the type of instruction Tom Perroni is so good at. First of all, top quality instruction. Both Tom and his co-instructors are guys who have a ton of experience behind them, and not only that, have a clear method of imparting that information to the class.

Second was the dynamic nature of the training at CCJA. Although there is a clear direction of the particular matters to be covered and skillsets worked on, there is a willingness to change on the fly when necessary. I'll give a couple examples from yesterday.

We were working hard on transition drills. We shot slug rounds against a metal target (and boy did that impact amply demonstrate the usefulness of slugs), slung the shotgun, and transitioned to the secondary, shooting metal plates at a relatively extended range. When Pete and Tom saw that our handgun work wasn't as good as it could have been, they changed gears and spent a good half hour or so working everybody hard on their pistol skills. It was fascinating to see Tom give the extremely abbreviated version of his pistol course, and then seeing positive changes in everybody's results in less than an hour.

Another example of flexibility is a demonstrated ability to listen to the students, especially when they have some experience themselves. We were running a great and demanding drill, moving laterally across a field of fire past both paper and metal targets and engaging those targets as they were called out in a random fashion. After we had completed that, JT had a great idea of running the same drill backwards, which meant that we shot the drill in mirror fashion--not just going the other way, but doing everything the other way, meaning shooting lefthanded. Pete and Tom saw the value of that drill as soon as JT mentioned it, and so we did it right away. (By the way, it was hard as heck because this was at the end of a long day, and the fatigue interfered with everything we were doing, especially when, on the fly, halfway across the course, you were told to shoot one-handed with the shotgun--left-handed remember--load one-handed with the shotgun, and still get hits on the target.)

That flexibility and willingness to listen to the students are some of the best parts of a CCJA course. Concomitant with that is their emphasis that what they are teaching is "a way," not "the way." Pursuant to that, two methods of one-handed reloading and charging the shotgun were taught. The students, being treated as people rather than automatons, were offered the flexibility to choose which method worked better for them.

A third point of the value of CCJA instruction is that you are pushed. The instructors are watching each student carefully, and are patently gauging where that student is on the learning curve in any particular drill. When a student is having problems just getting through that drill, obviously the pressure is sufficient. However, if the student is doing well, then the instructors are very willing to get into you with something much more than polite banter, but far less than Parris Island invective, in an attempt to push you to that stress level when you are more prone to make a mistake.

This is invaluable. Until you're pushed as hard as your ability can stand, you won't see where the breakdown in your technique will be. Once you get to that point, it is obvious what you need to continue to work on in the future, and of importance, it is at that point that Tom and Pete would offer their advice on how to avoid that problem in the future. If the f_up was relatively minor, they would "coach you up." If the breakdown was of a more significant nature, it is very common for them to stop the drill, and work in detail with that student on the problem for as long as necessary. If that meant that an instructor would be tied up with a student for some minutes, they would take you to the other side of the range and do individual work while the rest of the class went on with the drill.

In summary, CCJA is a great place to work on your shooting skill-set. There is no doubt that there are many other great facilities for firearms instruction around the area and the country, and it is a cool grace of Tom's that he will commonly name a number of other schools with great praise during the course of a class. However, shooters are genuinely doing themselves a disservice if they don't avail themselves of this first-class training.

JeepDriver
November 30th, 2009, 09:02 AM
After reading that I'm even more pissed off I couldn't take yesterdays class !

Les Gawlik
November 30th, 2009, 10:27 AM
The only problem is that these courses are addictive. It's like walking down the ramp after you get off the roller coaster- let's do that again!

The good news for those who couldn't make it is that Tom has big plans fro 2010. The syllabuses (yeah, I know, but syllabi was flagged by spell-check) will all be re-written and tightened up. I'm sure there will still be the sort of leeway in drills and instruction Tom gives us now. He is always asking whether we are doing the exercises we want. A good example was the move 'n' shoot yesterday. That was a suggestion from the class, JT, I think. It was the best drill we did, because it incorporated just about all the skills we had practiced.

As I said in an earlier post, all of this was new to me. I had a shotgun I bought for home defense, and it sat unfired in a corner for 20 years. I thought that if I was ever to use this thing for home defense, it would be a good idea to know how to use it. There were aspects to shooting that I never even thought of. I am still a beginner, but I know enough to practice simple skills at the range, and perhaps develop a level of proficiency before I need it.

If we support CCJA, I suspect we will find a very willing set of instructors to offer us exactly what we want.

glock_forty5
November 30th, 2009, 07:38 PM
One day Tactical Shotgun - CCJA Fredericksburg, VA

November 29, 2009

Instructors:

Tom Perroni and Pete

Students – Les and son, KAC, Dale, and myself, all MDShooters. :party29: Only 5 of the planned 10 showed up. :sad20: I know Ripper was diagnosed with pneumonia and that is serious but others did not show or call. Because of this I have a prediction – All future classes must be paid in full in advance, Tom needs to turn a profit. Tom, classy guy that he is, held the class anyway. 5 students to 2 instructors made for a great day of training for the 5 that showed!

Weather – Mild to partly awesome! T-shirts were the rule of the day! :D

Round counts – Over 200 bird shot, 6 00 buck (patterning), 12 slug, 120 9mm

Start – Class room lecture and power point presentation. Excellent material and the tag team instructional approach kept the class engaged. KAC and Les’ AARs covered the lectures in detail so I will stay high level.

Loading – This was divided in to lecture and hands on at the classroom and then used throughout the day at the range. There are two types of loading, combat reload and admin reload (see definitions below). After lecture the class used their shotguns and did both types of reloading with dummy rounds. This really sent the lesson home and paid off big time when we got to the range.

Definitions:

Combat reload – Dropping a shell in through the ejection port and then chambering the round (slide forward on a pump, slide release on a semi). This is done while keeping the shotgun pointed in the direction of the threat (the shotgun is ready to fire). A Combat reload can be done from up and over or down and around. Both ways have advantages and disadvantages. For me, up and over worked best for reloading from the side saddle shell carrier but down and under worked best when reloading from the belt.

Admin reload –This is done after the Combat reload. The operator loads shells in to the tube magazine while the shotgun remains pointed at the threat. Reengagement can occur at anytime as you are already on target.

Note: These techniques were used throughout the day.

Lunch – Evidently I am a cheap bastard and do not want anyone to waste training time on eating, instructors included. It is all about me after all. :D LOL. All kidding aside, everyone had brought a lunch except Pete, he did not get the memo. There was enough food so he was good to go. This was a good time for the students to gear up and prepare for the range.

Patterning – To get all 9 pellets of 00 buckshot reliably on target, 15 yards is the maximum range. Tom spoke highly of Tac8 00 buck (http://www.remingtonle.com/news/pr4.htm)and I may be able to extend that range with that ammo (instead of 9 pellets there are 8, this makes room for the flight control wad). I was using Federal 00 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=581296) with a flight control wad of some sort and was patterning pretty tight compared to the other ammo my classmates were using. 15 yards is fine for my home defense needs as I do not live in a mansion. LOL!

Fight to your feet – You know the drill. You start lying on your back as if you were knocked over. From there you engage the target (paper, 5ish yards out) with 1 round holding the shotgun, turned 90 degrees, stock above your shoulder, weak arm locked out to absorb recoil (you will know if you got this wrong), sighting down the side of the barrel. Then you move to seated position shotgun either above your shoulder or rotated down on and engage the target again with one round, then the same for kneeling and standing.

One arm drills – Ouch. These drill had the shooter running his shotgun one handed, both strong and weak side. Pete had the Sarah Conner reloading technique down to a science. The other technique was to capture the shotgun between your legs and rack the slide to reload. Semi autos would have ruled here but the experience would have been missed. The class practiced these dry before going hot. Both were used but I think the capture method was the preferred technique. Oh yeah, this was one of the more strenuous drill we did. Arm pump anyone???

http://www.rothregatta.org/wp-content/uploads/twenty-biceps-steroids.jpg


Slug, close range – Simple drill, starting with an empty gun combat load one slug and engage paper target with one round to the head, oh yeah the target was a bad guy holding a hostage. This drill helped us see where the slug will hit in relationship to our sights at close range. Pretty much POA is POI. We also did some quartering with buckshot and bird shot. If you only have a shotgun with shot and you need to take out the bad guy and he is holding a hostage move your POA up and away from the hostage side. If you know how your shotty patterns you should be able to estimate better where to aim. Quartering will not put all the pellets on target but will put some on while reducing the likelihood of hitting the hostage.

http://croneandbearit.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/large_slug2.jpg

Note: Maximum effective range with a slug from a smooth bore is about 50 yards.

Slug, 20 yards – This drill utilized Tom’s new barricade with high, med, low ports, curb, railing, and wall. It is set about 20yards out from the new steel plate racks (one on each side of the range, 12 eight inch plates on each, very nice). There was a rifle steel silhouette set in front of the plate rack (5 plates visible from each side). The shooter engaged the rifle steel with one slug through the high port then transition to pistol and shot the plates from the lower wall. This drill was tough and it brought out the weakness in my pistol skills (it was a tough shot but I was not doing my part). As KAC said in his write up, Tom called an audible and we all got a much needed mini pistol refresher. KAC really did well, he cleared that rack like a champ. He credits Tom’s Tactical Pistol 1 and 2 courses but it was KAC behind the trigger. Both courses are now on my list of things to do.

Shooting on the move – Tom and Pete served up a dish of “let’s see what their made of” and it was good. And it went a little something like this:

Targets - Starting from range right the first rack of plates was target 1 (remember 12 plates) then the 5 paper targets about 5 yards apart were targets 2-6 and the last plate rack on range right was target 7.

The plate rack looked kind of like this but there were 12 plates and it was built like a brick house of poo.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/1/images/dyn/plate_rack.jpg

Start – The shooter had anywhere from 1 to 3 rounds in the gun at the start (shooting a shotgun well in a tactical environment demands the shooter be proficient at reloading). The shooter then faced range right (all shooters were right handed) with shotty at low port. Upon the range command move the shooter walked until Pete called out contact left and a target number. Example: “contact left one two one” This command required the shooter to shoot one plate then the fist paper target then back to another plate. Pete served up many varied combinations including single handed and my favorite, load to capacity and unleash on the plate rack. Then we switched it up and moved from range right to range left. This means left hand carry and shooting. Oh yeah, and left hand and only left hand shooting/reloading.

Conclusion – We started with the basics and then advanced through tougher and tougher drills. We were pushed to failure then reeled back in. I consider myself fairly competent with a shotgun and still found myself learning new things about how to run a shotgun. Student experience ran from having never fired a shotgun to experienced 3 gunners. All students saw big improvements by the end of the day and left the farm with new tools in the tool box. This was a great course and I recommend it for both the beginner and experienced shooter.

Recommendations to Tom:

1. On the shoot and move drills, replace the paper targets with rifle steel. Instant feed back and less damage to the paper target holders.

2. More dummy rounds for class room drills.

Equipment recommendations:

1. California Competition shell holders (http://www.demooner.com/product.asp?numPageStartPosition=1&P_ID=25&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&strSearchCriteria=&PT_ID=15). I like the 4 rounders. I can grab four shells and load the tube with one hand or select however many I needed.:thumbsup:

http://www.demooner.com/uploads/images_versions/141.gif

2. Single Point Sling. Choose your poison. Good equipment is not cheap and cheap equipment is not good. My cheap hunting sling on my shotgun has got to go! Transitions were less than optimal. Pete rigged up a single point sling mount out of 550 cord for Dale and it worked great. I have a GGG single point sling mount (http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=147&parents=153,172)but I need to make some modifications for it to work the way I want it too (such a fussy young man :lol2:).

3. Side saddle shell holder (http://www.cabelas.com/p-0005620210793a.shtml). The one I use holds 6 shells. It is super quick to snatch a shell and roll my hand over top of the receiver to drop it the port. I will always add one of these to any shotgun I own. Note: on my 590A1 the serial number is covered by the side saddle shell carrier. Chad from Scott’s gunsmithing stamped the serial number on the carrier. He also did some trick clean up of the shell port.:thumbsup:

JT

glock_forty5
November 30th, 2009, 07:40 PM
The only problem is that these courses are addictive.

Tell me about it!

JT

boothdoc
November 30th, 2009, 07:44 PM
I am suffering from withdrawls just by reading about it!!!!!!!

JeepDriver
November 30th, 2009, 07:56 PM
Equipment recommendations:

1. California Competition shell holders. I like the 4 rounders. I can grab four shells and load the tube with one hand or select however many I needed.



But for what the shotgun would most likely be employeed, isn't that 'gaming' training ?

I can see using a drop bag just to keep spare ammo for a class, but fighting off of the ammo in and on the gun should be the goal of training. What you would have on the gun if you had to grab it and defend your home?

glock_forty5
November 30th, 2009, 08:06 PM
But for what the shotgun would most likely be employeed, isn't that 'gaming' training ?

I can see using a drop bag just to keep spare ammo for a class, but fighting off of the ammo in and on the gun should be the goal of training. What you would have on the gun if you had to grab it and defend your home?

Side saddle shell carrier is what I used first. When that went dry I went to the belt. Not really gaming, you can select how many shells you needed and Pete never made it the same. The moving drills you would run through 24 + rounds. You want to see gaming, look at some of the 3 gun gear shell holders, they are basically an armband with shells on it. (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24881/catid/22/3_Gun_Gear_12_Gauge_Arm_Band_8_Shotshells)

I think you are just bitter because I was shooting and you were painting the ceiling. :D

JeepDriver
November 30th, 2009, 08:19 PM
Slightly bitter, ceilings suck !

I still think it's gaming though. It's not realistic in a home defense situtation. A 24rd drill isn't defending your home which is what my shotgun would be used for.

I'm not knocking the drill's, it is adding to your skill set. I'm just thinking it could be a training scar. Maybe I'm over thinking it.

kac
November 30th, 2009, 08:46 PM
One thing we left out.

The 24 round drills weren't 24 round drills. They were 24 one round drills. Just about every occasion, we loaded NOTHING in the chute before the start of a drill. By making us load one at a time constantly and under pressure, we were forced to refine our combat loads. This makes us ready for the time when 6+1 just isn't enough.

Having the stuff glock45 had with him really only assisted him in making fewer trips back to the reloading bench. In 90% of the tactical situations, he would go with what's in the tube plus what's in his sidesaddle.

glock_forty5
November 30th, 2009, 08:48 PM
The big course was more of a graduation of sorts. A lot of the skills taught through out the day were used. Fatigue was high at this point as well, we were pushed to the point of failure and it that required a high round count. You need to know what your limitations are so you know what to work on. Tom pulled the plug when we were past failure. Stress fire my friend, stress fire.

Most of the drills during the day were 1, 2, or 3 round drills. That fits with both mine and your home defence requirement. The mag capacity of your SBS would not have been an issue.

3rdRcn
November 30th, 2009, 08:53 PM
Pictures or it didn't happen.:D

ooops, nevermind, read this thread before the pics thread.

Tom Perroni
December 1st, 2009, 08:44 AM
Check this out!

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/209732


Tom

Eudaimonia
December 1st, 2009, 10:12 AM
Check this out!

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/209732


Tom

That is a stern load. 1oz slug with 3 00 pellets, yowza.

Les Gawlik
December 1st, 2009, 11:50 AM
Where is the picture thread?

kac
December 1st, 2009, 02:38 PM
In this very CCJA part of the board.

herr.baer
December 1st, 2009, 04:35 PM
Where is the picture thread?

Cleverly disguised. :innocent0

CCJA Shotgun Class Pics! (http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=27947)

glock_forty5
December 1st, 2009, 05:55 PM
That is a stern load. 1oz slug with 3 00 pellets, yowza.

Le' dang!

That would be a good round for ManBearPig.

http://thingsaboutportlandthatsuck.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/manbearpig1.jpg
http://www.wronginfo.org/chan/nuke/src/123912454729.jpg

3rdRcn
December 1st, 2009, 06:08 PM
I like the centurion, 1oz. ball slug with 6 00 pellets, not much for past about 10 yards but devastating inside that.

kac
December 1st, 2009, 08:57 PM
All I know is that Dale used KO slugs and he literally took apart a steel man target with two shots. Took apart as in main pieces flying off the back in parts.

Sold me.

3rdRcn
December 1st, 2009, 09:15 PM
All I know is that Dale used KO slugs and he literally took apart a steel man target with two shots. Took apart as in main pieces flying off the back in parts.

Sold me.

Who makes the KO slugs?

glock_forty5
December 1st, 2009, 09:21 PM
Who makes the KO slugs?

Brenneke

Write up in shotgun world. (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=75617)

Tom Perroni
December 2nd, 2009, 10:51 AM
Dale & I were both shooting KO Slugs. Learned a long time ago as a LEO that I needed some knock down power with my Rem 870....

DZ
December 2nd, 2009, 10:55 AM
Brenneke KOs are the business and the price is right.

Les Gawlik
December 2nd, 2009, 12:55 PM
Imagine what that plate would look like if *I* had been shooting KO's...

RipkinC
December 2nd, 2009, 01:17 PM
Hey what slings did you use for your shotguns. I am mad i have been so busy that i never saw about the class till now. Looks fun!!!! and even more $$ than the others with ammo. Can't wonder what my arm would feel like after 100 rounds, mostly it seams like slugs.

kac
December 2nd, 2009, 01:35 PM
Hey what slings did you use for your shotguns. I am mad i have been so busy that i never saw about the class till now. Looks fun!!!! and even more $$ than the others with ammo. Can't wonder what my arm would feel like after 100 rounds, mostly it seams like slugs.

I think we've pretty much decided as a group to go to single-point slings. There really was a handling difference, especially with our constant concentration on ambidextrous shooting.

I can seriously assure you my shoulder didn't hurt at all. Most of us were using some sort of recoil pad, and most of us were trying out Tom's method of reducing recoil isometrically while handling the shotgun.

glock_forty5
December 2nd, 2009, 01:49 PM
To add to what KAC said the majority of the rounds were birdshot (200ish). About 10 and 10 for buck and slug.

Tom Perroni
December 2nd, 2009, 09:09 PM
Imagine what that plate would look like if *I* had been shooting KO's...

Les's Slug shot on my "BRAND NEW" pistol plate rack!

Les Gawlik
December 2nd, 2009, 09:22 PM
{Hanging head in shame}

3rdRcn
December 3rd, 2009, 06:08 AM
DAMN!!!